Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:06:44 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: trolling To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Hi, recently I've noticed a surge in the ammount of channels on furnet dedicated to people who hate furs, and who come on furnet only to poke and jibe at the regular users. Such channels are: #safurs #aryanfurs2 #eatshitanddie and the most recent one: #eatallfurries These channels exist for the sole purpose of providing a gathering point for people who are here to make our ircing unpleasant. They come here solely for the point of annoying us and making chatting difficult. In short, they should be banned. Either on a network level, or by a group of popular channels getting together and agreeing to share akick/ban masks for these trolls. Since the ircops won't ban them (indeed the oper 'Simba' is actually registered as the founder of some of the troll channels listed above) and on the times I've talked to him, appears to support their activities. Therefore it falls to us. My suggestion would be for an anti-safurs bot, which would operate on a known blacklist of safurs-based addresses. Basically this bot would be created and would sit as an op in many channels, with the owner of those channels controlling the bot's options for that channel. This bot would have a list of global ops on it that would be cleared to set bans that work in *ALL* channels the bot sits in. This would be designed so that once a troll attacks two or three channels, they get banned across the whole set. The list of global ops on this bot would be made up of trusted channel founders/ops/admins from across furnet, and they each would be able to make the bot leave their own channels in any cases of conflict. The bot would have a single mission, to know and ban the hostmasks used by known trolls, such as those that have been spamming us recently. I know the admins of furnet don't like users running bots, but I'm sad to say if they won't ban these trolls then it falls to use to co-ordinate some kind of cross-channel measure. Specificially, I'm thinking of a bot that sits in say, the most frequently used channels on furnet (those with a userbase of over 20-25, say) and bans out known trolls that come from channels like #eatallfurries which exist only to provide a staging ground for attacks on other channels. The criterion for banning someone using such a bot would be very strict, to prevent anyone adding bans on people they simply don't like, the bot would be ONLY used for banning people that are confirmed #safurs/etc trolls and supporters. This feature would be used to prevent the system that I have personally seen whereby channel names are mentioned in #safurs and these are then repeatedly trolled.... they simply work through a /list and disrupt anything they come across. What do you say chatters? are you tired of the trolls? If so, we need to work out some kind of ban-sharing arrangement whereby we can keep them out of several places at once, otherwise it's pointless as they just loop through all the channels and spam them in an endless cycle. I'm tired of having to join channels which constantly change, doing a /who and massbanning everyone in them on the grounds that they are simply a group of trolls. There should be a wider system in place here that operates-cross channel and would minimize abuse by people who really don't deserve to be here. -Ashen ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:21:38 -0600 From: Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: trolling On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:06:44 +0000 (GMT) Ashen <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > What do you say chatters? are you tired of the trolls? If so, we need to > work out some kind of ban-sharing arrangement whereby we can keep them out > of several places at once, otherwise it's pointless as they just loop > through all the channels and spam them in an endless cycle. I think you are giving the trolls the one thing that they are most desperate for... attention. If a person becomes a problem in your channel, by all means, ban them. It cant be that difficult. -- My mailbox is NOT an advertisement medium. Tehrasha Darkon My address is NOT for sale, lease or rent. [address redacted]@netins.net Send me spam, lose your account. Get it? TINLC-1372 http://tehrasha.mamehost.com/bastard B.A.S.T.A.R.D --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 19:59:42 -0500 > Ashen wrote a bunch of drek Hello there! =) Thank you for your opinion on our furry IRC community, #safurs. It is unfortunate that you are incorrect in your assesment of our community. You are also incorrect about your assesment of #eatallfurries and #aryanfurs and #aryanfurs2. These are furry channels which are run by furries or participants in furry fandom, for furries or participants in furry fandom, in the spirit of the IRC network, which is run by furries for furries. It is unfortunate that you do not wish to be a part of our thriving and entertaining communities, but I understand, they are not for everyone. I appreciate your suggestions about creating an IRC bot which would preemptively ban #safurs regulars and other users from many FurNet channels. This is a splendid idea. I suggest you implement it right away, as this would create a challenge resulting in further usage of proxies and more organized attacks by extremist furry trolls who are not in any way associated with our group. I am sure your bot would be put to excellent use in this instance. Please get started programming it right away. We are greatly appreciative of all the hard work put in by the administrative staff of FurNet including Snowpony and Simba and ZetaWolf, who have both worked very hard on making the IRC network welcome and fun for everyone including us. Thank you, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 01:55:22 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: RE: trolling To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --- Robert Wagman <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > Ashen wrote a bunch of drek > > Hello there! =) > > Thank you for your opinion on our furry IRC community, #safurs. > > It is unfortunate that you are incorrect in your assesment of our > community. > > > It is unfortunate that you do not wish to be a part of our thriving and > entertaining communities, but I understand, they are not for everyone. > > I appreciate your suggestions about creating an IRC bot which would > preemptively ban #safurs regulars and other users from many FurNet > channels. This is a splendid idea. I suggest you implement it right > away, as this would create a challenge resulting in further usage of > proxies and more organized attacks by extremist furry trolls who are not > in any way associated with our group. I am sure your bot would be put to > excellent use in this instance. Please get started programming it right > away. > > We are greatly appreciative of all the hard work put in by the > administrative staff of FurNet including Snowpony and Simba and > ZetaWolf, who have both worked very hard on making the IRC network > welcome and fun for everyone including us. > > Thank you, > > > - Bobby Excuse me, but I've sat in #safurs and watched people run through lists of channels, spamming them and moving on.... I've watched channels get simply targetted by a group of people from there simply because one person from that channel doesn't like the owner of said channel. I've *SEEN THIS* with my own eyes. I'm amazed you can sit there and say your presence here is a positive influence on furnet! As for proxies, furnet has a proxy banning system that, while not perfect, does catch most proxies. Secure proxies will have to be banned individually, but personally I'd be glad to have a small team of people who simply create global bans with a bot (which already exists...e.g. eggdrop could do bans in this way) which block proxy after proxy until the trolls get bored and go away. If they never get bored, well so be it, I'm not willing to say becuase the criminals are difficult to catch that we should give up trying to stop them going around and pissing everyone off. > You are also incorrect about your assesment of #eatallfurries and > #aryanfurs and #aryanfurs2. These are furry channels which are run by > furries or participants in furry fandom, for furries or participants in > furry fandom, in the spirit of the IRC network, which is run by furries > for furries. Have you even *READ* www.eatallfurries.com? (http://pub37.ezboard.com/beatallfurries) It's a community of people who hate furries and, and, barring those that actually hate themselves, I don't think they qualify as furs, and I certainly don't think they are a positive presence on our network. With regards to programming a bot, many existing bots can already do what I am advocating.... eggdrop could do it easily, for example And no, I don't really care if these trolls have lists of 300 or so proxies. It just means that, over time, the bot will have 300 or more bans on its banlist. I think it's worth it to give these people the message they are simply not welcome here. After all, why should a hundred individual channels have to put up with the aggrivation and annoyance caused by the spamming of a small group of people who don't like us anyway? We shouldn't. If the admins do nothing about it, what can you expect but for a handful of users who actually do care and want to see these trolls GONE to actually get together and do something about it? I've seen several large channels now have massive banlists of people from #safurs, some have even resorted to individually banning anyone seen there. I've seen it happen, and not just in one place either, I know of at least three medium/large channels that do this. My question is, why not provide one service to do this for many channels? This would reduce overhead and make bans on trolls better, easier to implement and more effective as they cross channel boundaries. Chanops run the show on their channels, if they would support such a system then why not implement it? I appreciate the work that the furnet admins do to keep the servers up, however when there is organised mass trolling such as is going on here and they tell us "it's not a network problem it's YOUR PROBLEM" it's always a "user problem" then I have to say "ok, well lets get a bunch of users together and do something about this!" No-one outside of the troll groups themselves has defended their actions to me yet, and I don't think anyone will. You're annoying, you're unwanted, you don't like us anyway.... so lets face it, everyone would be better off if you just left and never came back. You don't like us (as your websites illustrate) and we clearly don't want you, so why not just GO AWAY? -Ashen ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Received: (qmail 9395 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2004 02:20:09 -0000 Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:22:54 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashen [mailto:[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:54 PM > Subject: RE: trolling > > A bunch more prolonged drivel I am sorry you feel this way. However, I am unable to find any evidence in my channel logs of you having ever been in our channel. You have been banned from our channel for quite some time. We do not allow members of #babyfurs to sit in our channel because we do not agree with the ideals of babyfurs in general. Unfortunately, you are therefore admitting to having used a proxy or other workaround for a channel ban, because you are supposed to be banned. I am not aware of any organized trolling efforts eminating from our IRC channel communities. We have had two IRCops, Simba and Snowpony, both sitting in #safurs for months monitoring channel activity closely. There has been no such organized trolling of any sort occuring. There has, however, been collective mockery of logs and other message activity which is pasted in #safurs, which has been gathered passively from other channels we participate in. The majority of the members of our community participate actively in other channels such as #furry, #vcl, #maleyiff, #foxie, etc. On occasion things are typed in these channels which we find funny, however we do not incite people to type things which we find funny, they do this entirely on their own. There is, on occasion, trolling activity on FurNet by extremists who are not members of our community, who come from places off FurNet. These extremist trolls are in some instances aware of #safurs due to the reputation of #safurs which has been earned through people such as yourself posting your misguided information about our channel community in public places. These trolls are then drawn to our channel community thinking it is a hub for trolling activity, when in fact it is not. We do not have control over what extremist furry or non-furry trolls choose to do on FurNet, and we do not condone their activities, although we do consider the results to be funny. We have worked with the IRCops and staff of FurNet to control such trolling and activity to the best of our ability, however we are not responsible for the actions of people outside of our community who choose to troll or otherwise disrupt furry channel activities in our name, in the same manner that the Colt gun company is not responsible for a person shooting someone using a Colt branded weapon. The Eat All Furries community is a community devoted to analysis and mockery of extreme elements and other funny or interesting content within furry fandom. It is not a community devoted to organizing trolling attacks or otherwise, if you had actually read any of the posts and threads there you may have noticed this fact. The Eat All Furries community does not hate furries, nor does it desire for furries to go away, as the community would then not have any source of amusement or interest to focus on. Thank you for your well-thought out analysis with regards to our channel community and activities, but I am unfortunately forced to disagree with it due to your misinformation. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Kyle Hamilton" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: "'Ashen'" <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk>, <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:28:23 -0600 Absolutely not. I run a channel, m'self, and have yet to have any trolling in it. (Primarily because my channel doesn't tend to respond to such attention-mongering games.) How 'bout you get over it, and realize that Furry is different things to different people, and there's no guarantee that even any single one of your views will be shared by every single other person on the network? I actually know several folk who have accounts on somethingawful.com. And they're actually very good folk, as long as you realize that /nobody forces anyone to interact with anyone else/. They're not forced to interact with you, you're not forced to interact with them. Sheesh. (Too bad you've opened yourself up to being a target with your post -- showing yourself to be someone who takes yourself too seriously.) Have a sense of humor, and a sense of openness and inclusiveness... because if nothing else, they do have a place in this network. Even if it's for some people to point at them and say "that is what I am /not/." -Winged "I may not like what you have to say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it." -----Original Message----- From: Ashen [mailto:[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 6:07 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: trolling Hi, recently I've noticed a surge in the ammount of channels on furnet dedicated to people who hate furs, and who come on furnet only to poke and jibe at the regular users. Such channels are: #safurs #aryanfurs2 #eatshitanddie and the most recent one: #eatallfurries These channels exist for the sole purpose of providing a gathering point for people who are here to make our ircing unpleasant. They come here solely for the point of annoying us and making chatting difficult. In short, they should be banned. Either on a network level, or by a group of popular channels getting together and agreeing to share akick/ban masks for these trolls. Since the ircops won't ban them (indeed the oper 'Simba' is actually registered as the founder of some of the troll channels listed above) and on the times I've talked to him, appears to support their activities. Therefore it falls to us. My suggestion would be for an anti-safurs bot, which would operate on a known blacklist of safurs-based addresses. Basically this bot would be created and would sit as an op in many channels, with the owner of those channels controlling the bot's options for that channel. This bot would have a list of global ops on it that would be cleared to set bans that work in *ALL* channels the bot sits in. This would be designed so that once a troll attacks two or three channels, they get banned across the whole set. The list of global ops on this bot would be made up of trusted channel founders/ops/admins from across furnet, and they each would be able to make the bot leave their own channels in any cases of conflict. The bot would have a single mission, to know and ban the hostmasks used by known trolls, such as those that have been spamming us recently. I know the admins of furnet don't like users running bots, but I'm sad to say if they won't ban these trolls then it falls to use to co-ordinate some kind of cross-channel measure. Specificially, I'm thinking of a bot that sits in say, the most frequently used channels on furnet (those with a userbase of over 20-25, say) and bans out known trolls that come from channels like #eatallfurries which exist only to provide a staging ground for attacks on other channels. The criterion for banning someone using such a bot would be very strict, to prevent anyone adding bans on people they simply don't like, the bot would be ONLY used for banning people that are confirmed #safurs/etc trolls and supporters. This feature would be used to prevent the system that I have personally seen whereby channel names are mentioned in #safurs and these are then repeatedly trolled.... they simply work through a /list and disrupt anything they come across. What do you say chatters? are you tired of the trolls? If so, we need to work out some kind of ban-sharing arrangement whereby we can keep them out of several places at once, otherwise it's pointless as they just loop through all the channels and spam them in an endless cycle. I'm tired of having to join channels which constantly change, doing a /who and massbanning everyone in them on the grounds that they are simply a group of trolls. There should be a wider system in place here that operates-cross channel and would minimize abuse by people who really don't deserve to be here. -Ashen ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:46:51 -0600 From: Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: trolling On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 01:55:22 +0000 (GMT) Ashen <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > I've *SEEN THIS* with my own eyes. I'm amazed you can sit there and say > your presence here is a positive influence on furnet! And I have *SEEN* people continue to feed trolls the attention they want. > Have you even *READ* www.eatallfurries.com? Nope, and I wont. I refuse to give them any traffic from my computer. They arent worth it. > With regards to programming a bot, many existing bots can already do what > I am advocating.... eggdrop could do it easily, for example So what is stopping you? Write the bot, and get it registered. If a channel wants to allow it, they can employ it. > I've seen several large channels now have massive banlists of people from > #safurs, some have even resorted to individually banning anyone seen > there. I've seen it happen, and not just in one place either, I know of > at least three medium/large channels that do this. Yet you continue to site these 'mediaum/large channels anonymously. Ive seen channels which contain dynamic-IP bans that are months old too. A good set of channel ops would keep your banlist clean of out-dated bans. > My question is, why not provide one service to do this for many channels? > This would reduce overhead and make bans on trolls better, easier to > implement and more effective as they cross channel boundaries. > > Chanops run the show on their channels, if they would support such a > system then why not implement it? As you said, a bot would do. Get to work. > No-one outside of the troll groups themselves has defended their actions > to me yet, and I don't think anyone will. I will not defend the acts of trolling individuals. But being a regular on a channel does not automatically indicate guilt. > You're annoying, you're unwanted, you don't like us anyway.... > so lets face it, everyone would be better off if you just left and never > came back. You don't like us (as your websites illustrate) and we clearly > don't want you, so why not just GO AWAY? If these remarks are aimed at Robert (as you used you're instead of they're) you need a small reality check. Bobby is a furry oldtimer. Yes, he is brash, bitey and jaded, but it has been his time and experience here that has made him as he is. Perhaps his seniority has bordered on senility at times, but he certainly isnt 'anti-fur'. When you are done with youre anti-troll bot, how about setting up another version that will will ban users based on a sexual deviancy scale. Especially for some of the borderline illegal sexual perverse channels furnet has. Or how about for banning people who hang out in tech/geek channels. You know the ones, the guys who talk endlessly about perl and argue about which OS is better all the time. Or maybe one that will ban vs. their contry of origin, or maybe their religious creeds. Do you see where this could go? Do you see what can happen if you start a movement like this? Do you -really- want to set a precident? Yes, it seems silly and overboard, but things like this have happened, are happening and will happen in the future. History is full of examples. --Teh --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:20:09 +1100 (EST) From: "David Formosa (? the Platypus)" <[address redacted]@zeta.org.au> Reply-To: To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> cc: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: trolling On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, Ashen wrote: > These channels exist for the sole purpose of providing a gathering point > for people who are here to make our ircing unpleasant. They come here > solely for the point of annoying us and making chatting difficult. > > In short, they should be banned. Either on a network level, or by a group > of popular channels getting together and agreeing to share akick/ban masks > for these trolls. I don't think this is a wise course of action. I am of the firm oppinion that people should be judged based on there actions rather then there membership in any group or channel. To me your proposal smacks of guilt by assosation and collective punishment, both of which I consider more harmfull then trolling. If someone missbehaves in a channel then it seems fair to ban them from that channel, if someone acts in a way that threatens the furnet network then it seems fair to ban them from furnet. However I feel that it is wrong to ban someone simply because they have at some point assosated with people you have a dissagremnet with. > This bot would have a list of global ops on it that would be cleared > to set bans that work in *ALL* channels the bot sits in. If such a bot was proposed to become a permitted bot then I would argue against it in the strongest terms I can. > I know the admins of furnet don't like users running bots, but I'm sad to > say if they won't ban these trolls then it falls to use to co-ordinate > some kind of cross-channel measure. This sounds almost like an ultimatem directed towards the admins. I do not know the admin's thourts on this issue so I can't speek for them. But it the Admin's have made a policy desision not to ban such channels then I feel that banning them via a "Back door" method undermines there wishes. -- Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:45:28 -0600 From: Robert Chapin <[address redacted]@pelicancoast.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: trolling --------------060108000306070000000006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tehrasha Darkon wrote: >On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 01:55:22 +0000 (GMT) >Ashen <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > >>I've *SEEN THIS* with my own eyes. I'm amazed you can sit there and say >>your presence here is a positive influence on furnet! >> >> > >And I have *SEEN* people continue to feed trolls the attention they want. > > > >>Have you even *READ* www.eatallfurries.com? >> >> > >Nope, and I wont. I refuse to give them any traffic from my computer. >They arent worth it. > > > >>With regards to programming a bot, many existing bots can already do what >>I am advocating.... eggdrop could do it easily, for example >> >> > >So what is stopping you? Write the bot, and get it registered. >If a channel wants to allow it, they can employ it. > > > >>I've seen several large channels now have massive banlists of people from >>#safurs, some have even resorted to individually banning anyone seen >>there. I've seen it happen, and not just in one place either, I know of >>at least three medium/large channels that do this. >> >> > >Yet you continue to site these 'mediaum/large channels anonymously. >Ive seen channels which contain dynamic-IP bans that are months old too. >A good set of channel ops would keep your banlist clean of out-dated >bans. > > > >>My question is, why not provide one service to do this for many channels? >>This would reduce overhead and make bans on trolls better, easier to >>implement and more effective as they cross channel boundaries. >> >>Chanops run the show on their channels, if they would support such a >>system then why not implement it? >> >> > >As you said, a bot would do. Get to work. > > > >>No-one outside of the troll groups themselves has defended their actions >>to me yet, and I don't think anyone will. >> >> > >I will not defend the acts of trolling individuals. But being a regular >on a channel does not automatically indicate guilt. > > > >>You're annoying, you're unwanted, you don't like us anyway.... >>so lets face it, everyone would be better off if you just left and never >>came back. You don't like us (as your websites illustrate) and we clearly >>don't want you, so why not just GO AWAY? >> >> > >If these remarks are aimed at Robert (as you used you're instead of they're) >you need a small reality check. Bobby is a furry oldtimer. Yes, he is brash, >bitey and jaded, but it has been his time and experience here that has made >him as he is. Perhaps his seniority has bordered on senility at times, but >he certainly isnt 'anti-fur'. > >When you are done with youre anti-troll bot, how about setting up another >version that will will ban users based on a sexual deviancy scale. Especially >for some of the borderline illegal sexual perverse channels furnet has. >Or how about for banning people who hang out in tech/geek channels. You know >the ones, the guys who talk endlessly about perl and argue about which OS is >better all the time. Or maybe one that will ban vs. their contry of origin, >or maybe their religious creeds. Do you see where this could go? Do you see >what can happen if you start a movement like this? Do you -really- want to >set a precident? > >Yes, it seems silly and overboard, but things like this have happened, are >happening and will happen in the future. History is full of examples. > >--Teh > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org >To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org >To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org >For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > > > > Been there, seen it happen to me... All I did was enter the channel and ask about the claim agianst them and their channel.. The answer pretty much summed up to a "YES". I was abused, raked over the coals with plenty of Nazi symbol popups, abusive language, abrasive comments about homosexuals, pretty much the full spectrum.I was then kicked multiple times then banned. All from just asking for confirmation about the claim. --------------060108000306070000000006-- Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:01:28 +1100 (EST) From: "David Formosa (? the Platypus)" <[address redacted]@zeta.org.au> Reply-To: To: cc: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk>, <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: trolling On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, David Formosa (? the Platypus) wrote: [...] > This sounds almost like an ultimatem directed towards the admins. I do > not know the admin's thourts on this issue so I can't speek for them. But > it the Admin's have made a policy desision not to ban such channels then I > feel that banning them via a "Back door" method undermines there wishes. Sorry about the self reply, but I have do feel the need to clairfy something that may not be clear. I don't in any way approve of abusive trolling, regardless if it is done by #safurs, by inderpendent parties or by any group that arrises. Likewise my point above about banning them via the back door, also works in reverse. If the Admins make a policy desision to ban someone, or remove a group then bypassing that ban or removal also violates there wishes. -- Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:07:23 +1000 (EST) From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org> Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org> To: dformosa@dformosa.zeta.org.au cc: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk>, <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: trolling -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, David Formosa (? the Platypus) wrote: > Sorry about the self reply, but I have do feel the need to clairfy > something that may not be clear. I don't in any way approve of > abusive trolling, regardless if it is done by #safurs, by inderpendent > parties or by any group that arrises. > > Likewise my point above about banning them via the back door, also works > in reverse. If the Admins make a policy desision to ban someone, or > remove a group then bypassing that ban or removal also violates there > wishes. Id have to concur here with Q. Banning them via the back-door with a bot is not the way to go about it. If you have a legitimate complaint about #safurs then direct it to the administration (admin@irc.furnet.org) and I'm sure it will be looked into. Certainly do not go into creating your own banning solutions; let the administration of Furnet deal with the problem. - -- Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer! "Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://quantumlab.net/pine_privacy_guard/ iD8DBQFAHImLsuxUw4Mlzs0RAn/7AJ4+NPjan5jFSMmCroEfdQwX/9PTMACggl4W KUex+jd7nJXNY730sXIZQk8= =EbB8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:36:32 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Chapin [mailto:[address redacted]@pelicancoast.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 11:45 PM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: Re: trolling > All I did was enter the channel and ask about the claim agianst them and > their channel.. The answer pretty much summed up to a "YES". > I was abused, raked over the coals with plenty of Nazi symbol popups, > abusive language, abrasive comments about homosexuals, pretty much the > full spectrum.I was then kicked multiple times then banned. All from > just asking for confirmation about the claim. You got off light, usually we're much harsher on newcomers. And usually we're quite good at picking out legitimate users who are interested in our channel community, versus users who are coming to observe, gather "evidence" against us, or gather lists of names or IP addresses in order to attempt to preemptively ban us despite the fact we do not engage in coordinated trolling attacks of any sort. Please keep in mind that if extremist trolls not related to our channel community want to go into a channel they can no matter how many bans you stick up unless one of them is *!*@*. However, you must not forget that we are entitled to do whatever we please within the bounds of our own channel community. We are free to spam ASCII communist mario, use any sort of language we wish, kickban you for any reason, or do anything else within the bounds of our channel community so long as it does not disrupt the operation of the network or harm other users' IRC experience. If you do not like what you are seeing, you are free to leave the channel or use the /ignore feature present in your IRC client. We are not protesting other channels wishing to ban us - it is their channel and they may ban us for any reason they see fit, however automating this process with any sort of global bot goes against the principles of FurNet and goes against common sense. Individual channels may set bans as they see fit. Automating any sort of banning process is a poor idea in any instance. And again, if extremist trolls not related to our channel community wish to enter such channels and cause problems, they will do so regardless of what bans may be set in place. Preemptive banning is a waste of bandwidth and harms legitimate users wishing to use the channel, and acts as little more than putting up a large red bullseye on your channel which says "BEING TROLLED UPSETS US". Trolls seek out channels which get upset and react strongly to being trolled, and this sort of preemptive banning practice in fact enables trolls to quickly be able to pick and choose what channels to target. I highly advise against it, and I believe the FurNet administrative staff will agree with me on this matter. Your anecdote about your experience in #safurs is typical for many users who do not "get it", but does not function as any sort of positive evidence in an argument or claim against our channel community. We are free to be as immature as we wish within the bounds of our channel community. This IRC network is "by furries for furries" and we are furries - who choose to spam ascii communist mario and giant ascii text in our channel, and to be frank there is absolutely nothing you can do about it if you don't like it. Do not join our channel. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:36:21 -0600 From: Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: An experiment in futility... examining banlists Given the recent talk of akick limits and channel bans on medium/large I thought I would dig around and see what kind of numbers were involved. I limited a /list to show only channels with over 25 users. At the time of this experiment, this resulted in only 17 channels ranging in populations of 25 to 73. Channel names will be kept hidden to protect them from.... what, riddicule? Listed by # of users Channel Users Total_Bans Old_Bans Nick_Bans User_Bans -------------------------------------------------------------- 01 25 7 5 3 3 02 27 23 21 1 16 03 28 2 0 0 2 04 29 40 40 0 17 05 30 8 8 0 8 06 30 19 19 6 3 07 31 8 0 1 1 08 33 46 45 13 9 09 33 7 3 1 5 10 35 15 14 0 3 11 39 3 3 0 2 12 42 3 0 0 0 13 45 41 39 2 18 14 62 13 1 0 3 15 62 5 0 0 2 16 63 14 8 0 5 17 73 22 18 1 20 Listed by total # of bans Channel Users Total_Bans Old_Bans Nick_Bans User_Bans -------------------------------------------------------------- 03 28 2 0 0 2 11 39 3 3 0 2 12 42 3 0 0 0 15 62 5 0 0 2 01 25 7 5 3 3 09 33 7 3 1 5 05 30 8 8 0 8 07 31 8 0 1 1 14 62 13 1 0 3 16 63 14 8 0 5 10 35 15 14 0 3 06 30 19 19 6 3 17 73 22 18 1 20 02 27 23 21 1 16 04 29 40 40 0 17 13 45 41 39 2 18 08 33 46 45 13 9 Old_Bans ---- any channel bans which were placed before Jan 14th. Nick_Bans --- any ban that can be evaded by changing nickname User_Bans --- any ban that can be evaded by changing username Across these channels are 224 bans that are over 2 weeks old. Of those, 22 are Nick_Bans, 99 are User_Bans and 99 are bans on DynamicIP addresses which contain NO wildcards. In fact, there are several instances in many channels of the same individual being banned from the same domain multiple times, each with a new IP address. While the above is only a snapshot of FurNET and the numbers will always be changing, at least one universal truth is apparent. Keep your banlists up to date, clean, and sane! Some of the entries were examples of real brilliance. Paradoxically, the two of the channels above that I would call 'controversial' in that I would have expected them to have the most trouble with trolls and troublemakers, only had 10 bans between them. --Teh -- My mailbox is NOT an advertisement medium. Tehrasha Darkon My address is NOT for sale, lease or rent. [address redacted]@netins.net Send me spam, lose your account. Get it? TINLC-1372 http://tehrasha.mamehost.com/bastard B.A.S.T.A.R.D --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:58:25 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: safurs etc To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org (please note that I refer to '#safurs', 'the #safurs problem' etc during this email, and it referrs not just to #safurs but also to the many other channels of similar type and purpose.. this is not targetted at #safurs specifically, but at all channels that encourage organised trolling and spam) I've had enough of this. You can claim that #safurs etc is not a community of trolls all you like, but I've been on the channels that have have been repeatedly trolled and each of the trolls seems also to be on #safurs. I've then joined the channel #safurs, and found lists of channels being worked through by a group of people who join, spam and leave. I've seen this with my own eyes, and I've seen it happen to many channels. Nothing along the lines of "oh no, not us! we're an innocent laughs-based community!" will cut it with me. I've seen the effects myself, and while I admit that it's not all of the people in channels such as #safurs which participate in such trolling, many of them do, and it seems to be actively ignored by both the channel management and the furnet administration. The furnet admins are constantly telling us, the users, to work around the safurs problem our own way, for "it is not a network problem, it is a user problem" as they repeatedly tell us. Ok, fine. I don't have a problem with that... they do a good job maintaining the servers for us, and they can't be expected to do everything. I do however object when an admin first tells us to deal with matters on a channel-by-channel basis, and then the same admin when faced with a issue like cross-channel banning for trolls via a bot says the furnet administration should handle such things. Either leave us alone to handle it ourselves, or take responsibility and handle it yourself. Either or. You can't say one thing at one point then simply change your mind hours later simply because people are sick enough of the safurs (and similar channels) problem that they will actually do something about it. Since my first email I've been im'ed and invited on furnet by several new people in addition to the old handful of channels which ban #safurs and other people from similar channels simply based on their patronage there. I have been told that yes, some channels would support such a bot. On the issue of me joining channels to get userlists of them and then massbanning them in my own channels, it is perfectly within my rights as a chanop of these channels to do this. Also, I am not evading any bans by doing this, in fact to date I'm not even aware I've ever been banned by any troll channel. Though I have been pmed by a few of the people there. I used to ban only confirmed #safurs trolls from my channels, however now I have taken to simply banning the masks of all clients who use it and channels like it, simply because instead of us then getting 3 clients doing a join/spam/part of our channel at regular intervals, we now get 3 clients joining, and all being autokicked by chanserv for matching the akicks I've set against common #safurs trolls. It's simply economical to ban them all, it works! It stops the spam and it is much more effective then any other measure that's been tried, short of +k or +i'ing the channel and inviting only the regulars. I don't advocate banning *all* people on #safurs etc just because they are there, but I recokon that someone from #safurs/etc who joins a channel, spams and then leaves is very, very likely to be a malitious troll that is simply out to cause disruption, and that banning him across a range of channels would very likely save them from trolling in the immediate future. I don't think that creating a bot that would ban trolling #safurs goes against any principles of furnet whatsoever. Actually I think it is a really good idea becuase it leaves individual channels to decide whether or not they want to sign up to this service. It does what the furnet admins have been telling us, the users, to do for aeons.... "deal with it yourself, it's a channel problem, not a network problem". Regarding Snowpony's message about 'legitimate complaints', sorry, I like you SQ and you're a good admin, but I don't honestly believe that the admins as a group will take the kind of real banning action on the trolls that is desired by many. We've had many instances of complaining to you about them going through lists of channels and spamming / trolling them in sequence, and yet you still claimed it was not your responsibility to fix these problems. Ok, that's fine....... but you can't now turn around and say it is your responsibility to fix them, because you've not done anything substantial about the problem for so long you've lost credibility when it comes to dealing with it. You've also kept telling us to handle it ourselves..... and as soon as we do you tell us not to? That's neither fair nor consistient. It's also hollow. We've been complaining to you for ages about #safurs and similar and you've dropped the channel, taken control of it via chanserv..... and done numerous other things.... none of which actually involve BANNING THE TROLLS. I find this hard to fathom. Granted, they use many proxies, but furnet has proxy monitors and live opers that can and do set akills on proxies, insecure or secure. I've seen it happen. Credit to certain opers on furnet (I won't mention names because if I do I fear they will become targets) for dealing in suitably low tolerance ways with these trolls. Shame on Simba, particularly, but amongst others, who sit there and do nothing to stop these trolling attacks I don't deny at all the fact that many channels have a substantial ammount of outdated bans on them... yet I don't see how this relates to the safurs question. Yes, chanops need to take more responsibility for their own channels, no one denies that. Yet when several channels are attacked repeatedly by the same group of people, it seems better to provide help to them all on a communal basis then it is to simply deal with them individually, as doing the latter results in wasting of both time and effort. On the topic of bobby. Bobby is a #safur, because he uses that channel. He could be a completely innocent old time furry who simply sits there and laughs at the jokes... I've no indication to believe otherwise as I've never personally seen him do anything bad (that I can remember, anyway). However he's a rarity, most of the people of such channels are at least troll-tolerant (you can't argue against this, I've seen it myself several times with my own eyes) if not trolls themselves. I don't mean to offend bobby by saying he's as low as they are, however I also don't see why someone so old and wise would choose to associate with such a pathetic group. In reply to teh, yes, I do want to set a precident. I want channels to be able to freely choose who they want in, and who they want out. I wouldn't object to a bot that bans people by what faith they have either.... on the grounds that any channel that would have such a bot probably won't get many users and imho, doesn't deserve them. It's all about choice you see, if you give people the choice, specifically, if you give channel owners the choice of who they want to be able to chat in their channels and who they don't... then channels will be much more clearly defined and users will know the differences between them. As a result, the channels that have good content and good rules will prosper, and the ones that implement things like bans on the grounds of religious faith will quickly die out. Yes, I want to set a precident by encouraging people to take responsibility and exercise their right to choose between real alternatives. I would disagree about being a regular on channels like #safurs indicating guilt however.... 99% of the people we get in (a channel I know) that are from #safurs come only to troll and harass us. You can't argue with the statistics here. There are some nice safurs, yes, but the vast majority of them only come our way to cause us trouble and greif. If the rest don't show up at all, what harm comes by banning them all? None, because the good ones aren't affected and the bad ones are kept out, saving everyone hassle. Returning to the topic of bobby's most recent post. We can ban trolls... we do it quite effectively in several large channels I know of. Granted, it involves taking radical steps like pre-emptive bans against known trolls before they ever even consider attacking us (though they've attacked a number of other channels). This system however, works! We don't get troll problems! Other channels do. I don't have a problem with #safurs doing whatever they want withing their own community, because this is entirely their business, and none of mine. However, when they start to affect other channels and generally get on everyone's nerves then something has to be done. The current solutions at managing them are not working consistiently. I've seen times when there have been multiple opers in #safurs and there have been people there co-ordinating spam/troll attacks on channels right under the noses of the furnet admins! Why? the admins were idle...and not doing anything about it. I appreciate the money and time that the furnet admins put into providing us with furnet, but they have to accepct that sometimes user demand can influence policy, and that they can't tell us one thing one minitue (it's not a network problem, it's a channel problem) and another thing the next (if you have a complaint about this place, tell us and we'll sort it)... it's just not on. Pick one stance, either leave us, the users, alone to implement our own solution, or actually start doing something yourselves regarding this problem. To summarize: #safurs is not the only channel, there are others, notably #aryanfurs2 and #eatallfurries It's a problem because their trolling activities effect many channels. The furnet admins have told us repeatedly they don't want to get involved and we should handle it ourselves. We're not infringing anyone's rights here, we're simply running our own channels as and how we wish to as the legitimate owners and ops of said channels. I would add that none of this would be necessary if the people running certain channels in which trolls tend to mass would take some responsibiliy and ban them from said channels to at least hinder their efforts to co-ordinate themselves against other channels. If #safurs etc did this then I'd not consider implementing a bot to ban #safurs etc channel residents, however since they're letting their community piss people off so much, something has to be done. My goal with these posts is to raise awareness of the safurs/etc problems, and to demand a good response from either the furnet staff (one which is consistent and does not involve claiming two opposite things at the same time) or the channels (we want safurs out... so lets do something about it) I have had, to be fair, several enquiries over irc in the past hours about this proposed bot plan from enthuiastic channel ops/admins. If #safurs is so innocent, why are all these channels so keen to ban them so harshy? Could it be because 99% of the joins we get from clients also on #safurs are trolls? -AWolf ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: safurs etc Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 02:23:33 -0500 tl;dr -----Original Message----- From: Ashen [mailto:[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 1:58 AM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: safurs etc (please note that I refer to '#safurs', 'the #safurs problem' etc during this email, and it referrs not just to #safurs but also to the many other channels of similar type and purpose.. this is not targetted at #safurs specifically, but at all channels that encourage organised trolling and spam) I've had enough of this. You can claim that #safurs etc is not a community of trolls all you like, but I've been on the channels that have have been repeatedly trolled and each of the trolls seems also to be on #safurs. I've then joined the channel #safurs, and found lists of channels being worked through by a group of people who join, spam and leave. I've seen this with my own eyes, and I've seen it happen to many channels. Nothing along the lines of "oh no, not us! we're an innocent laughs-based community!" will cut it with me. I've seen the effects myself, and while I admit that it's not all of the people in channels such as #safurs which participate in such trolling, many of them do, and it seems to be actively ignored by both the channel management and the furnet administration. The furnet admins are constantly telling us, the users, to work around the safurs problem our own way, for "it is not a network problem, it is a user problem" as they repeatedly tell us. Ok, fine. I don't have a problem with that... they do a good job maintaining the servers for us, and they can't be expected to do everything. I do however object when an admin first tells us to deal with matters on a channel-by-channel basis, and then the same admin when faced with a issue like cross-channel banning for trolls via a bot says the furnet administration should handle such things. Either leave us alone to handle it ourselves, or take responsibility and handle it yourself. Either or. You can't say one thing at one point then simply change your mind hours later simply because people are sick enough of the safurs (and similar channels) problem that they will actually do something about it. Since my first email I've been im'ed and invited on furnet by several new people in addition to the old handful of channels which ban #safurs and other people from similar channels simply based on their patronage there. I have been told that yes, some channels would support such a bot. On the issue of me joining channels to get userlists of them and then massbanning them in my own channels, it is perfectly within my rights as a chanop of these channels to do this. Also, I am not evading any bans by doing this, in fact to date I'm not even aware I've ever been banned by any troll channel. Though I have been pmed by a few of the people there. I used to ban only confirmed #safurs trolls from my channels, however now I have taken to simply banning the masks of all clients who use it and channels like it, simply because instead of us then getting 3 clients doing a join/spam/part of our channel at regular intervals, we now get 3 clients joining, and all being autokicked by chanserv for matching the akicks I've set against common #safurs trolls. It's simply economical to ban them all, it works! It stops the spam and it is much more effective then any other measure that's been tried, short of +k or +i'ing the channel and inviting only the regulars. I don't advocate banning *all* people on #safurs etc just because they are there, but I recokon that someone from #safurs/etc who joins a channel, spams and then leaves is very, very likely to be a malitious troll that is simply out to cause disruption, and that banning him across a range of channels would very likely save them from trolling in the immediate future. I don't think that creating a bot that would ban trolling #safurs goes against any principles of furnet whatsoever. Actually I think it is a really good idea becuase it leaves individual channels to decide whether or not they want to sign up to this service. It does what the furnet admins have been telling us, the users, to do for aeons.... "deal with it yourself, it's a channel problem, not a network problem". Regarding Snowpony's message about 'legitimate complaints', sorry, I like you SQ and you're a good admin, but I don't honestly believe that the admins as a group will take the kind of real banning action on the trolls that is desired by many. We've had many instances of complaining to you about them going through lists of channels and spamming / trolling them in sequence, and yet you still claimed it was not your responsibility to fix these problems. Ok, that's fine....... but you can't now turn around and say it is your responsibility to fix them, because you've not done anything substantial about the problem for so long you've lost credibility when it comes to dealing with it. You've also kept telling us to handle it ourselves..... and as soon as we do you tell us not to? That's neither fair nor consistient. It's also hollow. We've been complaining to you for ages about #safurs and similar and you've dropped the channel, taken control of it via chanserv..... and done numerous other things.... none of which actually involve BANNING THE TROLLS. I find this hard to fathom. Granted, they use many proxies, but furnet has proxy monitors and live opers that can and do set akills on proxies, insecure or secure. I've seen it happen. Credit to certain opers on furnet (I won't mention names because if I do I fear they will become targets) for dealing in suitably low tolerance ways with these trolls. Shame on Simba, particularly, but amongst others, who sit there and do nothing to stop these trolling attacks I don't deny at all the fact that many channels have a substantial ammount of outdated bans on them... yet I don't see how this relates to the safurs question. Yes, chanops need to take more responsibility for their own channels, no one denies that. Yet when several channels are attacked repeatedly by the same group of people, it seems better to provide help to them all on a communal basis then it is to simply deal with them individually, as doing the latter results in wasting of both time and effort. On the topic of bobby. Bobby is a #safur, because he uses that channel. He could be a completely innocent old time furry who simply sits there and laughs at the jokes... I've no indication to believe otherwise as I've never personally seen him do anything bad (that I can remember, anyway). However he's a rarity, most of the people of such channels are at least troll-tolerant (you can't argue against this, I've seen it myself several times with my own eyes) if not trolls themselves. I don't mean to offend bobby by saying he's as low as they are, however I also don't see why someone so old and wise would choose to associate with such a pathetic group. In reply to teh, yes, I do want to set a precident. I want channels to be able to freely choose who they want in, and who they want out. I wouldn't object to a bot that bans people by what faith they have either.... on the grounds that any channel that would have such a bot probably won't get many users and imho, doesn't deserve them. It's all about choice you see, if you give people the choice, specifically, if you give channel owners the choice of who they want to be able to chat in their channels and who they don't... then channels will be much more clearly defined and users will know the differences between them. As a result, the channels that have good content and good rules will prosper, and the ones that implement things like bans on the grounds of religious faith will quickly die out. Yes, I want to set a precident by encouraging people to take responsibility and exercise their right to choose between real alternatives. I would disagree about being a regular on channels like #safurs indicating guilt however.... 99% of the people we get in (a channel I know) that are from #safurs come only to troll and harass us. You can't argue with the statistics here. There are some nice safurs, yes, but the vast majority of them only come our way to cause us trouble and greif. If the rest don't show up at all, what harm comes by banning them all? None, because the good ones aren't affected and the bad ones are kept out, saving everyone hassle. Returning to the topic of bobby's most recent post. We can ban trolls... we do it quite effectively in several large channels I know of. Granted, it involves taking radical steps like pre-emptive bans against known trolls before they ever even consider attacking us (though they've attacked a number of other channels). This system however, works! We don't get troll problems! Other channels do. I don't have a problem with #safurs doing whatever they want withing their own community, because this is entirely their business, and none of mine. However, when they start to affect other channels and generally get on everyone's nerves then something has to be done. The current solutions at managing them are not working consistiently. I've seen times when there have been multiple opers in #safurs and there have been people there co-ordinating spam/troll attacks on channels right under the noses of the furnet admins! Why? the admins were idle...and not doing anything about it. I appreciate the money and time that the furnet admins put into providing us with furnet, but they have to accepct that sometimes user demand can influence policy, and that they can't tell us one thing one minitue (it's not a network problem, it's a channel problem) and another thing the next (if you have a complaint about this place, tell us and we'll sort it)... it's just not on. Pick one stance, either leave us, the users, alone to implement our own solution, or actually start doing something yourselves regarding this problem. To summarize: #safurs is not the only channel, there are others, notably #aryanfurs2 and #eatallfurries It's a problem because their trolling activities effect many channels. The furnet admins have told us repeatedly they don't want to get involved and we should handle it ourselves. We're not infringing anyone's rights here, we're simply running our own channels as and how we wish to as the legitimate owners and ops of said channels. I would add that none of this would be necessary if the people running certain channels in which trolls tend to mass would take some responsibiliy and ban them from said channels to at least hinder their efforts to co-ordinate themselves against other channels. If #safurs etc did this then I'd not consider implementing a bot to ban #safurs etc channel residents, however since they're letting their community piss people off so much, something has to be done. My goal with these posts is to raise awareness of the safurs/etc problems, and to demand a good response from either the furnet staff (one which is consistent and does not involve claiming two opposite things at the same time) or the channels (we want safurs out... so lets do something about it) I have had, to be fair, several enquiries over irc in the past hours about this proposed bot plan from enthuiastic channel ops/admins. If #safurs is so innocent, why are all these channels so keen to ban them so harshy? Could it be because 99% of the joins we get from clients also on #safurs are trolls? -AWolf ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: safurs etc Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:42:29 -0800 This post is not intended to be flamitory at all, but in regards to bobby's response: lol That is all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 11:23 PM Subject: RE: safurs etc tl;dr --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 02:15:39 -0600 From: Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: safurs etc On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:42:29 -0800 "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> wrote: > This post is not intended to be flamitory at all, but in regards to bobby's > response: > > lol > > That is all. I had to have bobby explain it to me. :) I'd never seen that term used before. -- My mailbox is NOT an advertisement medium. Tehrasha Darkon My address is NOT for sale, lease or rent. [address redacted]@netins.net Send me spam, lose your account. Get it? TINLC-1372 http://tehrasha.mamehost.com/bastard B.A.S.T.A.R.D --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 03:24:21 -0500 Subject: Re: safurs etc From: Erik B McDarby <[address redacted]@juno.com> On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 02:15:39 -0600 Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> writes: > On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:42:29 -0800 > "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> wrote: > > > This post is not intended to be flamitory at all, but in regards > to bobby's > > response: > > > > lol > > > > That is all. > > I had to have bobby explain it to me. :) > I'd never seen that term used before. Well, I figured out that the term was likely "tough luck ; deleted read" after looking at it a few times. -- Erik --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Gypsy" <[address redacted]@verizon.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 02:31:58 -0800 Subject: Re: safurs etc Well... guess it just goes to show it takes all kinds; diversity is our strength, and although it sometimes gets taken to extremes (in my perspective, not anyone else's; I make absolutely no assumptions on anyone else's perspective here), it's still the greatest strength we have. Curiously, since I've seen absolutely no trolling activity that can be pinned down to any one group of fursons, I accesses the website mentioned. I found a couple of interesting quotations, and I'd like to share the final one I found, in an attempt to put this whoooooole thing to rest. On the message board in question, the very first post concerns the site's FAQ; the final line of that FAQ reads: "Eat All Furries" is intended as a humorous forum and should not, under any circumstances, be taken seriously by anyone. As I have absolutely no personal experience to the contrary, I must assume that this statement is true. My apologies to those who own and maintain the message board in question, should I be in the wrong for posting a quote from the FAQ here in my reply; I mean absolutely no harm in it, I simply wished to accentuate a couple of specific points. My first point is already stated; my second point is this: Everything in this world is a matter of perspective. Because your perspective doesn't match with someone else's does not mean you are right and they are wrong, or vice versa. You see things one way, others see things a million other ways. Your sense of humor may not agree with theirs; this does not make their sense of humor - or yours - wrong or invalid. On a personal level, I agree with sentiments posted by others: you're welcome to do whatever you want in your own channels, no one's stopping you from doing that. But to mass ban a group of individuals based solely on their patronage of a certain channel or channels is wrong, in my book. Judge not, lest ye be judged, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you (and that's as holy or religious as I get, folks. LOL). Living by those tenets has kept my life a lot nicer and less complicated. Chandrea/Mae (Chandrea on IRC, Maelynd (or Mae) just about everywhere else) :) http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Maelynd "Depend upon it, sir. When a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." - Samuel Johnson --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org>, "Ashen" <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:10:21 -0600 Trolling.. yes I can do something about and have been removing them as I catch them doing it or as logs are provided. As far as Banning a channel because you think they are a source is another story. If topics viewable from outside the channel are offensive I simply request they be changed or the room be made +s. Singling out a specific channel and banning people randomly because they happen to be in the channel is not exactly fair because its not the whole channel that is trolling. As a matter of fact I went to one of the listed channels and made them aware of a situation. If you have logs of the user and IP that is trolling your channel let me know and I'll look into it. But as I said.. banning or akilling everyone that happens to be in one of those channels is not fair nor is it something I would recommend. ZetaWolf --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org>, "Robert Chapin" <[address redacted]@pelicancoast.net> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:34:09 -0600 Why would you go to a place that offends you?? The channels themselves are not so much the problem its the users that go in there poking their nose around and get insulted and then want to complain they are being abused. Its quite simple.. don't go to those channels. I have had no problems getting said channels to change topics upon request or at least make the channel +s so its not visible form outside the channel. What confirmation would one need?? I'm not supporting or against anyone. Just wondering why someone would go to a place they KNOW they will be attacked or abused in?? -Z -----Original Message----- From: Robert Chapin [mailto:[address redacted]@pelicancoast.net] Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:45 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: trolling Been there, seen it happen to me... All I did was enter the channel and ask about the claim agianst them and their channel.. The answer pretty much summed up to a "YES". I was abused, raked over the coals with plenty of Nazi symbol popups, abusive language, abrasive comments about homosexuals, pretty much the full spectrum.I was then kicked multiple times then banned. All from just asking for confirmation about the claim. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:57:39 +1100 (EST) From: "David Formosa (? the Platypus)" <[address redacted]@zeta.org.au> Reply-To: To: Robert Wagman <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> cc: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, Robert Wagman wrote: > gather lists of names or IP addresses in order > to attempt to preemptively ban us despite the fact we do not engage in > coordinated trolling attacks of any sort. If #safurs was found to have been used for co-ordinated trolling attacks would you consider that a legitimate excuse for the removal of the channel and the banning of the parties who engaged in that behavour from the network? Further more would you support admins taking action of that nature? > However, you must not forget that we are entitled to do whatever we > please within the bounds of our own channel community. Conversly when behavour steps out of the bounds of your channel that freedom is reduced. Also the above statment is not absolutly true, there are behavours that even within channels are not permitted. From the banner/motd thing that comes up (this one is taken from Margay I'm sure that the other servers have simmler rules) No Excessive Connections No War Bots or War Scrips (Ask before running ANY bot) No Mass Advertising No Nuking or DoS attacks No Harrassment of fellow users No Illegal Activerty No Flooding Even within your little channel community you have no entitlement to do the above. [...] > Your anecdote about your experience in #safurs is typical for many users > who do not "get it", but does not function as any sort of positive > evidence in an argument or claim against our channel community. And the bounds your ISP's AUP and the rules of furnet. -- Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Chiffy" <[address redacted]@pacbell.net> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: trolling Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 05:14:23 -0800 > No Excessive Connections > No War Bots or War Scrips (Ask before running ANY bot) > No Mass Advertising > No Nuking or DoS attacks > No Harrassment of fellow users > No Illegal Activerty > No Flooding > > Even within your little channel community you have no entitlement to do > the above. Just adding my quick two-cents in... Of the above rules that are listed in the MOTD, which are actually broken in the #safurs and/or related community channels? The only possible violation of the above list, IN THEIR CHANNEL, that I can see would fall under 'harrassment of fellow users', and I believe if it stays in their channel, it's perfectly fine. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:23:41 +1100 (EST) From: "David Formosa (? the Platypus)" <[address redacted]@zeta.org.au> Reply-To: To: Chiffy <[address redacted]@pacbell.net> cc: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: trolling On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, Chiffy wrote: > > No Excessive Connections > > No War Bots or War Scrips (Ask before running ANY bot) > > No Mass Advertising > > No Nuking or DoS attacks > > No Harrassment of fellow users > > No Illegal Activerty > > No Flooding > > > > Even within your little channel community you have no entitlement to do > > the above. > > Just adding my quick two-cents in... > Of the above rules that are listed in the MOTD, which are actually broken in > the #safurs and/or related community channels? I was speeking more on a philosphical leval rather then a spacific one. However I can think of two things that violate these rules. No Flooding and No Harrassment. Booby has already admitted to spamming the Gay Communist Mario (or whatever it was). > The only possible violation of the above list, IN THEIR CHANNEL, that I can > see would fall under 'harrassment of fellow users', and I believe if it > stays in their channel, it's perfectly fine. If the admins considered it something that was perfectly fine withing there own channel, then it wouldn't be on the list. -- Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:45:49 +0000 From: Torne <[address redacted]@wolfpuppy.org.uk> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: An experiment in futility... examining banlists --On 31 January 2004 11:36 PM -0600 Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> wrote: > Given the recent talk of akick limits and channel bans on medium/large > I thought I would dig around and see what kind of numbers were involved. > > Paradoxically, the two of the channels above that I would call > 'controversial' in that I would have expected them to have the > most trouble with trolls and troublemakers, only had 10 bans > between them. Your survey misses channels using bots, as they tend to use dynamic bans which do not remain set on the channel due to lack of space. My bot dynamically generates them from its database of abusive users, and if it were to apply them all would quickly fill the channel banlist many times over; there are currently over a thousand masks which are 'banned'. -- Torne Wuff torne@wolfpuppy.org.uk Wolf puppy and coder. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Aerocoon" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 18:42:55 -0000 Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate speech, denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized human being. If I was an administrator, I'd be looking extremely closely at this situation right now, and consider whether it is sensible to continue to host #aryanfurs. Just a thought, before panther's admin finds himself in court on criminal charges should anyone make a complaint. And once you're aware of a problem, to do nothing and rely on 'It's my users not me' is not a defence, as Yahoo and e-bay have found. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:26:30 -0500 Last time I checked zoophilia and advocacy of zoophilia was illegal and violates obscenity laws in many countries and states, too. By that logic, #zoo and other zoo-related channels are in the same boat. A lot of activity which occurs on FurNet qualifies as "repugnant to any civilized human being". Can't have one and not have the other. In fact, to some degree, that is our point. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 1:43 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: #aryanfurs Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate speech, denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized human being. If I was an administrator, I'd be looking extremely closely at this situation right now, and consider whether it is sensible to continue to host #aryanfurs. Just a thought, before panther's admin finds himself in court on criminal charges should anyone make a complaint. And once you're aware of a problem, to do nothing and rely on 'It's my users not me' is not a defence, as Yahoo and e-bay have found. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:39:30 -0500 (forgive me, outlook doesn't do indented quoting, so I am doing it by hand) > -----Original Message----- > From: David Formosa (? the Platypus) > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 7:58 AM > If #safurs was found to have been used for co-ordinated trolling > attacks would you consider that a legitimate excuse for the removal of > the channel and the banning of the parties who engaged in that > behavour from the network? Further more would you support admins > taking action of that nature? Of course, but the admins have in fact been sitting in the channel and monitoring it, and the activities in the channel have, given that it is still here, not crossed the line. > Conversly when behavour steps out of the bounds of your channel > thatfreedom is reduced. Also the above statment is not absolutly > true, there are behavours that even within channels are not permitted. > From the banner/motd thing that comes up (this one is taken from > Margay I'm sure that the other servers have simmler rules) > > No Excessive Connections We do not connect more than one to two IRC clients to any server each at any given time. This is well within the bounds of acceptable use. > No War Bots or War Scrips (Ask before running ANY bot) We do not run any bots or war scripts of any sort on a permanent basis, and do not run any scripts which operate outside the bounds of our own channel, nor do we operate any scripts which qualify as "war" scripts. > No Mass Advertising We do not engage in such activity. > No Nuking or DoS attacks We do not engage or condone such activity, although on occasion we have heard of extremist trolls not related to our IRC channel community having used the mIRC exploit to crash clients. > No Harrassment of fellow users This is a grey area. We do not do anything which a user cannot prevent by using the /ignore command. We do on occasion mock people who take things such as our channel or furry fandom too seriously. These users are free to use the ignore feature if they do not wish to see what we are typing. This behaviour is not exclusive to us, it has been occuring on FurNet since its inception and it occurred on the old YiffNet as well. > No Illegal Activerty We do not engage in any illegal activity nor do we condone such activity. You will find no file sharing scripts, illegal pictures or materials, or any other content in our channel which breaks any laws. > No Flooding We do not flood (as in, maliciously attempt to disrupt the activity of the IRC network via consuming its bandwidth using scripts or other targeted client attacks). An ASCII art macro is not considered a "flood", you will very seldom if ever see any of the users of our channel community have a client disconnected for excess flood. If the IRC server does not disconnect us for it, then it must fall within the bounds of what is acceptable to the irc server administrator. And we do not use these macros or ASCII art outside of our channel community. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Received: (qmail 18476 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2004 19:37:40 -0000 From: "BlakDrgn Adanthios" <[address redacted]@cfl.rr.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:37:37 -0500 So you rely on the age old kindergarten saying "If little Timmy breaks the rules, and gets away with it, then I can too!" Guess what, two wrongs don't make a right, and never will dude. -BlakDrgn > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Wagman [mailto:[address redacted]@sympatico.ca] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:27 PM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: RE: #aryanfurs > > Last time I checked zoophilia and advocacy of zoophilia was illegal and > violates obscenity laws in many countries and states, too. By that > logic, #zoo and other zoo-related channels are in the same boat. A lot > of activity which occurs on FurNet qualifies as "repugnant to any > civilized human being". > > Can't have one and not have the other. In fact, to some degree, that is > our point. > > Regards, > > > - Bobby > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 1:43 PM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: #aryanfurs > > > Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in > Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate speech, > denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a > criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized > human being. > > If I was an administrator, I'd be looking extremely closely at this > situation right now, and consider whether it is sensible to continue to > host #aryanfurs. Just a thought, before panther's admin finds himself in > court on criminal charges should anyone make a complaint. And once > you're aware of a problem, to do nothing and rely on 'It's my users not > me' is not a defence, as Yahoo and e-bay have found. > > -- > Aerocoon > ICQ #84663206 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:41:58 -0500 So you are acknowledging zoophilia is inappropriate on the irc network by stating it is one of these two "wrongs"? We are fully willing to let go of this channel if other similarily obscene material is also removed. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: BlakDrgn Adanthios [mailto:[address redacted]@cfl.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:37 PM To: [address redacted]@sympatico.ca Subject: RE: #aryanfurs So you rely on the age old kindergarten saying "If little Timmy breaks the rules, and gets away with it, then I can too!" Guess what, two wrongs don't make a right, and never will dude. -BlakDrgn --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Aerocoon" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> References: <042f01c3e8f9$4b7d27e0$0100a8c0@marshmallow> Subject: Re: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:38:34 -0000 Your point is confused. I'll explain more simply. Talking about zoophilia is legal. Talking about Aryan dominance and using Nazi symbols and advocating racial hatred in Germany is illegal. And forgive me if you feel my morality is a little warped, but I find revelling in the systematic execution of millions of Jews rather harder to tolerate that a guy who enjoys dressing up in bondage gear or diapers or looking at an animals cock. So yes, I'm quite happy to have one and not the other. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: RE: #aryanfurs > Last time I checked zoophilia and advocacy of zoophilia was illegal and > violates obscenity laws in many countries and states, too. By that > logic, #zoo and other zoo-related channels are in the same boat. A lot > of activity which occurs on FurNet qualifies as "repugnant to any > civilized human being". > > Can't have one and not have the other. In fact, to some degree, that is > our point. > > Regards, > > > - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:41:50 +0100 From: Juergen Rosskamp <[address redacted]@tigress.com> Reply-To: Juergen Rosskamp <[address redacted]@tigress.com> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: #aryanfurs On Sunday, February 1, 2004, 20:26, Robert Wagman wrote: > Last time I checked zoophilia and advocacy of zoophilia was illegal and > violates obscenity laws in many countries and states, too. By that > logic, #zoo and other zoo-related channels are in the same boat. A lot > of activity which occurs on FurNet qualifies as "repugnant to any > civilized human being". §175b RStGB 15. Mai 1871 Die widernatürliche Unzucht, welche zwischen Personen männlichen Geschlechts oder von Menschen mit Tieren begangen wird, ist mit Gefängnis zu bestrafen; auch kann auf Verlust der bürgerlichen Ehrenrechte erkannt werden. § 175 StGB: Homosexuelle Handlungen 25. Juni 1969 §175b wird aufgehoben. § 175 StGB: Homosexuelle Handlungen 10. März 1994 §175 ersatzlos aufgehoben. ---- § 86 GG: Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln verfassungswidriger Organisationen 23. Mai 1949 (1)Wer Propagandamittel 2. einer Vereinigung, die unanfechtbar verboten ist, weil sie sich gegen die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung oder gegen den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung richtet, oder von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen verbotenen Vereinigung ist, im Inland verbreitet oder zur Verbreitung im Inland oder Ausland herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt oder in Datenspeichern öffentlich zugänglich macht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft. Bummer. Seems like you lose, Bobby. -- Furry Code 1.3 FCWs3~4amrs A--- C+++ D- H++ M P++ R++ T+++ W-- Z Sm++ |Guts-Muths-Str. 38 RLCT a23 cblon+++$ d+ e f+ h iwf+++$ j p- sm++ |30165 Hannover -------------------------------------------------------|Germany Fon:+49 511 4591473 | PGP key ID:0x6DAE1CDB |ICQ: 17774551 Fax:+49 511 4591475 | |GSM: +49 162 6831994 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "someone" <[address redacted]> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: FW: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:46:03 -0000 (Apologies to Robbo if he gets this message twice as I hit the reply button by accident) Ah yes, you have a point, but Racism and paraphilia are different things, same applies under the law; racism, Neo-Nazism, White-Power, KKK, etc. are all totally illegal because they involve at least one party involved in the activities harm/distress/complaint, paraphilia doesn't. Paraphilia is only illegal because those who don't have such deviations see it as "socially unacceptable", as quotable from many medical and physiological encyclopaedias and dictionaries. Zoophilia isn't doing anyone any harm, remember it is the love of an animal, not just the sex side of it, look it up in a (proper) dictionary if you don't believe me. Racism is totally different and completely unacceptable, I am all for the closure of #aryanfurs if it is what I think it is. However I haven't been in there, nor am considering to either, but if it is a white-supremacy channel then I want it closed and all like it shut as well. Just my side on things Erinn -----Original Message----- From: Robert Wagman [mailto:[address redacted]@sympatico.ca] Sent: 01 February 2004 19:27 To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Last time I checked zoophilia and advocacy of zoophilia was illegal and violates obscenity laws in many countries and states, too. By that logic, #zoo and other zoo-related channels are in the same boat. A lot of activity which occurs on FurNet qualifies as "repugnant to any civilized human being". Can't have one and not have the other. In fact, to some degree, that is our point. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 1:43 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: #aryanfurs Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate speech, denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized human being. If I was an administrator, I'd be looking extremely closely at this situation right now, and consider whether it is sensible to continue to host #aryanfurs. Just a thought, before panther's admin finds himself in court on criminal charges should anyone make a complaint. And once you're aware of a problem, to do nothing and rely on 'It's my users not me' is not a defence, as Yahoo and e-bay have found. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "BlakDrgn Adanthios" <[address redacted]@cfl.rr.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:47:56 -0500 http://babelfish.altavista.com/ for those that don’t speak german. -BlakDrgn > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Rosskamp [mailto:[address redacted]@tigress.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:42 PM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: Re: #aryanfurs > > On Sunday, February 1, 2004, 20:26, Robert Wagman wrote: > > > Last time I checked zoophilia and advocacy of zoophilia was illegal and > > violates obscenity laws in many countries and states, too. By that > > logic, #zoo and other zoo-related channels are in the same boat. A lot > > of activity which occurs on FurNet qualifies as "repugnant to any > > civilized human being". > > §175b RStGB > 15. Mai 1871 > Die widernatürliche Unzucht, welche zwischen Personen männlichen > Geschlechts > oder von Menschen mit Tieren begangen wird, ist mit Gefängnis zu > bestrafen; > auch kann auf Verlust der bürgerlichen Ehrenrechte erkannt werden. > > § 175 StGB: Homosexuelle Handlungen > 25. Juni 1969 > §175b wird aufgehoben. > > § 175 StGB: Homosexuelle Handlungen > 10. März 1994 > §175 ersatzlos aufgehoben. > > ---- > > § 86 GG: Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln verfassungswidriger > Organisationen > 23. Mai 1949 > > (1)Wer Propagandamittel > 2. einer Vereinigung, die unanfechtbar verboten ist, weil sie sich > gegen die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung oder gegen den Gedanken der > Völkerverständigung richtet, oder von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, > daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen verbotenen Vereinigung ist, > im Inland verbreitet oder zur Verbreitung im Inland oder Ausland > herstellt, > vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt oder in Datenspeichern öffentlich > zugänglich macht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit > Geldstrafe bestraft. > > Bummer. Seems like you lose, Bobby. > > -- > Furry Code 1.3 > FCWs3~4amrs A--- C+++ D- H++ M P++ R++ T+++ W-- Z Sm++ |Guts-Muths-Str. 38 > RLCT a23 cblon+++$ d+ e f+ h iwf+++$ j p- sm++ |30165 Hannover > -------------------------------------------------------|Germany > Fon:+49 511 4591473 | PGP key ID:0x6DAE1CDB |ICQ: 17774551 > Fax:+49 511 4591475 | |GSM: +49 162 > 6831994 > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:00:17 -0500 As I scroll through my logs of #aryanfurs and #aryanfurs2, I do not see any advocacy of holocaust denial, serious antisemetic discussion, condonement of hate or racism (although racist terms are used, this is no more illegal than their usage in a hollywood movie is) or anything else. You unfortunately have never joined the channel, therefore you do not have any place to say what the content of it is. Usage of Nazi symbols in a text medium is also not illegal. Since none of us actually connect to the german server that I am aware of, we are not using it to broadcast this data. Technically speaking, the data does not actually get received by the german server unless a client in #aryanfurs is connected to that server. The topic contains no offensive text. The term "aryan" is not illegal. Therefore, no laws are actually being broken since the german server is not receiving or transmitting any data containing any potential hate speech or other references to nazism. By all means, I have no objection to the german server adding all of us to its K:line list, thusly preventing any of us from connecting to it, therefore removing any liability it might have. We don't use it anyways. The concept of a "joke" is clearly above you. I am sorry you do not get it. I myself, would rather have people making perfectly legal (albeit tasteless) and harmless jokes about events occuring during World War 2, than have information and pictures describing the illegal usage and abuse of animals. Perhaps my morals are warped? You might also note that my last name, "Wagman", is a Jewish name. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:39 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: #aryanfurs Your point is confused. I'll explain more simply. Talking about zoophilia is legal. Talking about Aryan dominance and using Nazi symbols and advocating racial hatred in Germany is illegal. And forgive me if you feel my morality is a little warped, but I find revelling in the systematic execution of millions of Jews rather harder to tolerate that a guy who enjoys dressing up in bondage gear or diapers or looking at an animals cock. So yes, I'm quite happy to have one and not the other. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Aerocoon" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> References: <000601c3e8fc$06e96eb0$0200a8c0@d8200> Subject: Re: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:02:24 -0000 #aryanfurs a genuine white-supremacy channel? Hardly. I haven't visited either, but as Bobby just admitted in a prior message, their purpose simply seems to be to inflame opinion and cause offense until his own arguments are listened to. But he doesn't want us to consider him a troll! That's not to say their actions aren't dangerous, or can be ignored because those feelings aren't genuine. German law will hardly accept 'I was just pretending to spread hate!' as an excuse. K'line the little kids and trolls in there playing dress-up-Nazi, or remove the channel and do the same to anyone who tries to recreate it. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 ----- Original Message ----- From: "someone" <[address redacted]> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 7:46 PM Subject: FW: #aryanfurs (Apologies to Robbo if he gets this message twice as I hit the reply button by accident) Ah yes, you have a point, but Racism and paraphilia are different things, same applies under the law; racism, Neo-Nazism, White-Power, KKK, etc. are all totally illegal because they involve at least one party involved in the activities harm/distress/complaint, paraphilia doesn't. Paraphilia is only illegal because those who don't have such deviations see it as "socially unacceptable", as quotable from many medical and physiological encyclopaedias and dictionaries. Zoophilia isn't doing anyone any harm, remember it is the love of an animal, not just the sex side of it, look it up in a (proper) dictionary if you don't believe me. Racism is totally different and completely unacceptable, I am all for the closure of #aryanfurs if it is what I think it is. However I haven't been in there, nor am considering to either, but if it is a white-supremacy channel then I want it closed and all like it shut as well. Just my side on things Erinn --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:13:57 +0000 From: Foxcub <[address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: #aryanfurs For my taste, the question of whether the German server receives the data or not is completely academic. The channel, its name and its topic, implied or otherwise, is available to that server. All it takes is one person to see the channel, object, and complain, whether to the Furnet admins, or to those responsible for the server's hardware, to set a ball in motion that could have very serious ramifications for the network as a whole. A joke is a joke, but there are boundaries and lines of common decency. This, to me, would seem to be one of those times when that line is crossed in an extremely crass, and above all, tasteless fashion. Ban the trolls. We're setting an dangerous precedent here, effectively saying that no matter how far a channel degrades, no matter how tasteless its topics, it's welcome on the network. I find that difficult to accept. Foxcub. Robert Wagman wrote: > As I scroll through my logs of #aryanfurs and #aryanfurs2, I do not see > any advocacy of holocaust denial, serious antisemetic discussion, > condonement of hate or racism (although racist terms are used, this is > no more illegal than their usage in a hollywood movie is) or anything > else. You unfortunately have never joined the channel, therefore you do > not have any place to say what the content of it is. > > Usage of Nazi symbols in a text medium is also not illegal. Since none > of us actually connect to the german server that I am aware of, we are > not using it to broadcast this data. Technically speaking, the data does > not actually get received by the german server unless a client in > #aryanfurs is connected to that server. The topic contains no offensive > text. The term "aryan" is not illegal. Therefore, no laws are actually > being broken since the german server is not receiving or transmitting > any data containing any potential hate speech or other references to > nazism. By all means, I have no objection to the german server adding > all of us to its K:line list, thusly preventing any of us from > connecting to it, therefore removing any liability it might have. We > don't use it anyways. > > The concept of a "joke" is clearly above you. I am sorry you do not get > it. I myself, would rather have people making perfectly legal (albeit > tasteless) and harmless jokes about events occuring during World War 2, > than have information and pictures describing the illegal usage and > abuse of animals. Perhaps my morals are warped? > > You might also note that my last name, "Wagman", is a Jewish name. > > Regards, > > > - Bobby > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:39 PM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: Re: #aryanfurs > > > Your point is confused. I'll explain more simply. > > Talking about zoophilia is legal. Talking about Aryan dominance and > using Nazi symbols and advocating racial hatred in Germany is illegal. > > And forgive me if you feel my morality is a little warped, but I find > revelling in the systematic execution of millions of Jews rather harder > to tolerate that a guy who enjoys dressing up in bondage gear or diapers > or looking at an animals cock. So yes, I'm quite happy to have one and > not the other. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Nick Zatkovich" <[address redacted]@doctor-nick.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 14:18:04 -0600 That reminds me bobby, when's our next Nazi cosplay meeting? I need to get my SS uniform from the cleaners. Seriously, #aryanfurs2 is harmless. It's a bunch of people who already know eachother from other communities making nazi jokes. If anyone participating actually took it seriously, Simba wouldn't have let it stay around as long as it has. -- Nick Zatkovich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:22:27 -0500 You apparently still do not seem to get the purpose of a "joke". I suppose the German government doesn't either, but then, I can't say I particularily care. We haven't received many interesting reactions to the channel, although a couple of people joined the channel who believed the channel was there for furries who believe that they are better than the rest of the human race because they are an animal trapped inside a human body, and that that animal is superior to humans. No, I don't get it either. It is the admins' perogative as to wheither to remove the channel or not. They are free to do as they please with it. However, as I have stated previously, no data is being sent to the german server, therefore no law is being broken. If one wants to get nitty-gritty and tear the law apart letter by letter, that's fine. Also, to Hurga, thank you for posting a bunch of german gobbledegook which nobody can understand. I'm sorry, Babelfish does not provide a very accurate translation of such legal text. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:02 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: #aryanfurs #aryanfurs a genuine white-supremacy channel? Hardly. I haven't visited either, but as Bobby just admitted in a prior message, their purpose simply seems to be to inflame opinion and cause offense until his own arguments are listened to. But he doesn't want us to consider him a troll! That's not to say their actions aren't dangerous, or can be ignored because those feelings aren't genuine. German law will hardly accept 'I was just pretending to spread hate!' as an excuse. K'line the little kids and trolls in there playing dress-up-Nazi, or remove the channel and do the same to anyone who tries to recreate it. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Kyle Hamilton" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: "'Aerocoon'" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com>, <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:20:30 -0600 Then, the administrator of that server can prevent people from joining that channel on that server. Once that happens, no PRIVMSGs on that channel get sent to that server... and suddenly, problem solved. No speech against German law goes into Germany. Technological solution to a political problem. -Winged -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 12:43 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: #aryanfurs Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate speech, denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized human being. If I was an administrator, I'd be looking extremely closely at this situation right now, and consider whether it is sensible to continue to host #aryanfurs. Just a thought, before panther's admin finds himself in court on criminal charges should anyone make a complaint. And once you're aware of a problem, to do nothing and rely on 'It's my users not me' is not a defence, as Yahoo and e-bay have found. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:47:22 -0500 You seem to forget that we are, for the most part, furries as well. And that we are, for the most part, joking around. We have to tolerate the existance of you babyfurs and your moderately pedophiliac channel and activities. You can therefore put up with us. We don't bother your channel, what with your bot that has "over 1000 bans in it" and all, so don't bother ours. So far I'm seeing a lot of "against" arguing from #babyfurs residents and not much from anywhere else. How odd, that. All this started when one of the members of your channel, Ashen, joined #eatallfurries. Ban us all from your channel and get over it already. We don't care. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Foxcub [mailto:[address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:14 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: #aryanfurs For my taste, the question of whether the German server receives the data or not is completely academic. The channel, its name and its topic, implied or otherwise, is available to that server. All it takes is one person to see the channel, object, and complain, whether to the Furnet admins, or to those responsible for the server's hardware, to set a ball in motion that could have very serious ramifications for the network as a whole. A joke is a joke, but there are boundaries and lines of common decency. This, to me, would seem to be one of those times when that line is crossed in an extremely crass, and above all, tasteless fashion. Ban the trolls. We're setting an dangerous precedent here, effectively saying that no matter how far a channel degrades, no matter how tasteless its topics, it's welcome on the network. I find that difficult to accept. Foxcub. Robert Wagman wrote: > As I scroll through my logs of #aryanfurs and #aryanfurs2, I do not > see any advocacy of holocaust denial, serious antisemetic discussion, > condonement of hate or racism (although racist terms are used, this is > no more illegal than their usage in a hollywood movie is) or anything > else. You unfortunately have never joined the channel, therefore you > do not have any place to say what the content of it is. > > Usage of Nazi symbols in a text medium is also not illegal. Since none > of us actually connect to the german server that I am aware of, we are > not using it to broadcast this data. Technically speaking, the data > does not actually get received by the german server unless a client in > #aryanfurs is connected to that server. The topic contains no > offensive text. The term "aryan" is not illegal. Therefore, no laws > are actually being broken since the german server is not receiving or > transmitting any data containing any potential hate speech or other > references to nazism. By all means, I have no objection to the german > server adding all of us to its K:line list, thusly preventing any of > us from connecting to it, therefore removing any liability it might > have. We don't use it anyways. > > The concept of a "joke" is clearly above you. I am sorry you do not > get it. I myself, would rather have people making perfectly legal > (albeit > tasteless) and harmless jokes about events occuring during World War 2, > than have information and pictures describing the illegal usage and > abuse of animals. Perhaps my morals are warped? > > You might also note that my last name, "Wagman", is a Jewish name. > > Regards, > > > - Bobby > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:39 PM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: Re: #aryanfurs > > > Your point is confused. I'll explain more simply. > > Talking about zoophilia is legal. Talking about Aryan dominance and > using Nazi symbols and advocating racial hatred in Germany is illegal. > > And forgive me if you feel my morality is a little warped, but I find > revelling in the systematic execution of millions of Jews rather > harder to tolerate that a guy who enjoys dressing up in bondage gear > or diapers or looking at an animals cock. So yes, I'm quite happy to > have one and not the other. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:53:07 +0100 From: Juergen Rosskamp <[address redacted]@tigress.com> Reply-To: Juergen Rosskamp <[address redacted]@tigress.com> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org, [address redacted]@sympatico.ca Subject: Re: #aryanfurs On Sunday, February 1, 2004, 21:22, Robert Wagman wrote: > You apparently still do not seem to get the purpose of a "joke". I > suppose the German government doesn't either, but then, I can't say I > particularily care. My very dearest friend Mr. Wagman, as with numerous of your countrymen, you too seem to suffer from a certain kind of forgetfulness: You seem to forget that your oh so cherished free speech laws are valid in *your* country, and not worldwide. What you, as a Canadian, might refer to as a "joke", albeit a sick and twisted one, may be just illegal in other jurisdictions. Has this ever come to your mind? Concerning the little prank you're playing here on this IRC network, I'm going to tell you a little story: My mother was born in 1939 in a little town near what is now Kaliningrad, Russia. In the winter of 1944, just when she had turned five, she and her sixteen sisters and brothers were forced on a 2,000 kilometer hike together with millions of other people, Russian soldiers sometimes only two or three kilometers behind them, killing and raping those people in the trail that weren't fast enough. When my mother's family finally arrived in the pile of rubble and dead bodies created by British and American air raids that became West Germany later, of the eighteen core family members only eleven were left, three more dying of hunger between 1945 and 1948. Up until today, at age 65, my mother sometimes wakes up screaming at night. Both my grandfathers were active NSDAP party members, one of them playing a leading role at the Gestapo branch in the concentration camp Bergen-Belsen, subsequently spending several years in Siberia as a POW, not being released by the Soviet Union until 1955, having already lost one arm. Come along a nice young man from the Americas, healthy, probably the only terrifying true story he's ever been told being his granny's spooky story about the strange noises in the attic. Then this little nice man creates a channel, calls it "aryanfurs" and goes on telling everybody "Ha, ha, it's only a joke, ha ha". Like I wouldn't get arrested or at least put in an asylum if I'd put a sign around my neck saying "Give me all your money or I'l keel you, haha". To make it short: WHAT A SICK FUCK ARE YOU DIRTY LITTLE BASTARD? > Also, to Hurga, thank you for posting a bunch of german gobbledegook > which nobody can understand. I'm sorry, Babelfish does not provide a > very accurate translation of such legal text. I'm not Hurga, but thank you anyways for efficiently proving that you don't have any valid point in this discussion. EOD, Herr Obersturmbannführer. Horst-Wessel-Lied und ab. -- Furry Code 1.3 FCWs3~4amrs A--- C+++ D- H++ M P++ R++ T+++ W-- Z Sm++ |Guts-Muths-Str. 38 RLCT a23 cblon+++$ d+ e f+ h iwf+++$ j p- sm++ |30165 Hannover -------------------------------------------------------|Germany Fon:+49 511 4591473 | PGP key ID:0x6DAE1CDB |ICQ: 17774551 Fax:+49 511 4591475 | |GSM: +49 162 6831994 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:56:15 +0000 From: Foxcub <[address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: #aryanfurs For the record, I speak on my own behalf, not on behalf of #babyfurs or elsewhere. Also for the record, last time I checked, we had banned you all because you did the exact opposite of leaving us alone, unless continuous trolling and abuse counts in your definition of leaving someone alone. I believe you put up with us because you have to, not because you want to. If you want to see us as "moderately pedophilic", that's up to you, if you're so closed-minded and short-sighted that you're incapable of seeing or accepting the truth. I'm certainly sick and tired of trying to change your mind. I'm choosing to see you as racist bigots, so I guess it all balances out in the bigger picture. Ashen has no more authority than I do to discuss #babyfurs, in fact, he's gone out of his way to avoid mentioning it at all. The fact that he and I are babyfurs is, largely, irrelevant: we're discussing your transgressions, not my or his lifestyle choices. I say it again, the last post from this so-called "old-timer" does nothing but back my argument up. Bobby, and those like him, are out to abuse both people and services, out to cause arguments and spread animosity throughout the network. The question of whether any group of individuals should be allowed to systematically persecute another (I'm talking about #aryanfurs/Nazi-ism here) shouldn't even be open for discussion: it's simply wrong. People are different, get over that. Foxcub. Robert Wagman wrote: > You seem to forget that we are, for the most part, furries as well. And > that we are, for the most part, joking around. > > We have to tolerate the existance of you babyfurs and your moderately > pedophiliac channel and activities. You can therefore put up with us. We > don't bother your channel, what with your bot that has "over 1000 bans > in it" and all, so don't bother ours. So far I'm seeing a lot of > "against" arguing from #babyfurs residents and not much from anywhere > else. How odd, that. All this started when one of the members of your > channel, Ashen, joined #eatallfurries. > > Ban us all from your channel and get over it already. We don't care. > > Regards, > > > - Bobby > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Foxcub [mailto:[address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:14 PM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: Re: #aryanfurs > > > For my taste, the question of whether the German server receives the > data or not is completely academic. The channel, its name and its > topic, implied or otherwise, is available to that server. > > All it takes is one person to see the channel, object, and complain, > whether to the Furnet admins, or to those responsible for the server's > hardware, to set a ball in motion that could have very serious > ramifications for the network as a whole. > > A joke is a joke, but there are boundaries and lines of common decency. > This, to me, would seem to be one of those times when that line is > crossed in an extremely crass, and above all, tasteless fashion. > > Ban the trolls. We're setting an dangerous precedent here, effectively > saying that no matter how far a channel degrades, no matter how > tasteless its topics, it's welcome on the network. I find that > difficult to accept. > > Foxcub. > > > Robert Wagman wrote: > >>As I scroll through my logs of #aryanfurs and #aryanfurs2, I do not >>see any advocacy of holocaust denial, serious antisemetic discussion, >>condonement of hate or racism (although racist terms are used, this is > > >>no more illegal than their usage in a hollywood movie is) or anything >>else. You unfortunately have never joined the channel, therefore you >>do not have any place to say what the content of it is. >> >>Usage of Nazi symbols in a text medium is also not illegal. Since none > > >>of us actually connect to the german server that I am aware of, we are > > >>not using it to broadcast this data. Technically speaking, the data >>does not actually get received by the german server unless a client in > > >>#aryanfurs is connected to that server. The topic contains no >>offensive text. The term "aryan" is not illegal. Therefore, no laws >>are actually being broken since the german server is not receiving or >>transmitting any data containing any potential hate speech or other >>references to nazism. By all means, I have no objection to the german >>server adding all of us to its K:line list, thusly preventing any of >>us from connecting to it, therefore removing any liability it might >>have. We don't use it anyways. >> >>The concept of a "joke" is clearly above you. I am sorry you do not >>get it. I myself, would rather have people making perfectly legal >>(albeit >>tasteless) and harmless jokes about events occuring during World War > > 2, > >>than have information and pictures describing the illegal usage and >>abuse of animals. Perhaps my morals are warped? >> >>You might also note that my last name, "Wagman", is a Jewish name. >> >>Regards, >> >> >>- Bobby >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] >>Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:39 PM >>To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org >>Subject: Re: #aryanfurs >> >> >>Your point is confused. I'll explain more simply. >> >>Talking about zoophilia is legal. Talking about Aryan dominance and >>using Nazi symbols and advocating racial hatred in Germany is illegal. >> >>And forgive me if you feel my morality is a little warped, but I find >>revelling in the systematic execution of millions of Jews rather >>harder to tolerate that a guy who enjoys dressing up in bondage gear >>or diapers or looking at an animals cock. So yes, I'm quite happy to >>have one and not the other. >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > > -- Foxcub [address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk http://www.babyfox.org.uk/playpen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:11:28 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Rosskamp [mailto:[address redacted]@tigress.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:53 PM > > Come along a nice young man from the Americas, healthy, probably the > only terrifying true story he's ever been told being his granny's > spooky story about the strange noises in the attic. Sorry, my friend. While most of my older relatives are dead, I do remember a couple of them having numbers tattooed into their skin. I don't claim to understand you, so don't patronize me by attempting to comprehend me. You still fail to get it. It's a joke. It is choosing to make light of something drastic and horrific which occurred 60 years ago, yes. Is it tasteless? Of course it is. You, do not get the joke. We do. Too bad for you, ignore it since you don't like it, and get on with your life. We're not causing you or anyone else any harm. > Then this little nice man creates a channel, calls it "aryanfurs" > and goes on telling everybody "Ha, ha, it's only a joke, ha ha". Like > I wouldn't get arrested or at least put in an asylum if I'd put a > sign around my neck saying "Give me all your money or I'l keel you, > haha". I'll use more blunt language to get my point across: "What the hell are you talking about". And I'm not the one who created the channel. You might actually want to use Chanserv to find that out before making an arbitrary statement. > To make it short: WHAT A SICK FUCK ARE YOU DIRTY LITTLE BASTARD? Um.. okay. I can be sick for making jokes about nazis and the holocaust, and you can be sick for condoning zoophilia. Which is worse by society's standards at large? LET'S SPIN THE WHEEL OF DRAMA TO FIND OUT, PAT! > I'm not Hurga, but thank you anyways for efficiently proving that you > don't have any valid point in this discussion. And I didn't start the channel, so we're even. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> To: "Foxcub" <[address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk>, <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> References: <043701c3e904$979e2290$0100a8c0@marshmallow> <401D67EF.5070705@babyfox.org.uk> Subject: Re: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:22:15 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Foxcub" <[address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 12:56 PM Subject: Re: #aryanfurs > If you want to see us as "moderately pedophilic", that's up to you, if > you're so closed-minded and short-sighted that you're incapable of > seeing or accepting the truth. I'm certainly sick and tired of trying > to change your mind. I'm choosing to see you as racist bigots, so I > guess it all balances out in the bigger picture. > Please explain how acting like a child does not equal, on a walking-the-line level, a love for children. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:28:27 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Foxcub [mailto:[address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:56 PM > > If you want to see us as "moderately pedophilic", that's up to you, > if you're so closed-minded and short-sighted that you're incapable > of seeing or accepting the truth. I'm certainly sick and tired of > trying to change your mind. I'm choosing to see you as racist bigots, > so I guess it all balances out in the bigger picture. I'm basing my conclusions about you from having actually been in your channel and having spoken with various members of it. You have never been in our channel, therefore you have zero place to argue. > The fact that he and I are babyfurs is, largely, irrelevant: we're > discussing your transgressions, not my or his lifestyle choices. It is relevant because thus far the argument against us has primarily been sparked by people in the babyfurs community. Over and over again. The admins have apparently already made their decision, since our channels are still here and the admins have been watching over them. The admins have also apparently decided that your babyfurs channel (which offends me just as much as hatred, bigotry and racism offend you) is allowed to remain, and that zoo channels are allowed to remain. Thusly I don't waste much of my breath arguing against them to the admins, I just tolerate their existance and make fun of them. If you can't deal with it, use ignore or just don't read my emails. > I say it again, the last post from this so-called "old-timer" does > nothing but back my argument up. Bobby, and those like him, are out > to abuse both people and services, out to cause arguments and spread > animosity throughout the network. The question of whether any group > of individuals should be allowed to systematically persecute another > (I'm talking about #aryanfurs/Nazi-ism here) shouldn't even be open > for discussion: it's simply wrong. People are different, get over > that. You have never joined the IRC channels in question, therefore you have no argument. You are assuming, based merely upon the name of the channel, what its content is. You have no actual knowledge of what we may or may not be doing in our channel, so your entire argument is completely invalid. Mind you there'd be no sense in you joining now, as you'd be banned on sight, but unfortunately that's just the way it is. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:29:34 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Sorry, my friend. While most of my older relatives are dead, I do > remember a couple of them having numbers tattooed into their skin. I > don't claim to understand you, so don't patronize me by attempting to > comprehend me. You still fail to get it. It's a joke. It is choosing to > make light of something drastic and horrific which occurred 60 years > ago, yes. Is it tasteless? Of course it is. You, do not get the joke. We > do. Too bad for you, ignore it since you don't like it, and get on with > your life. We're not causing you or anyone else any harm. Um, your trolls have caused repeated problems for many large channels on this network. You're dishonouring and laughing at the millions of good people who gave up their lives to give you the freedom to make your little "jokes"... freedom that you now take for granted.... which you only have becuase of these people you are disrespecting. You're a sick and twisted individual if you find this shit funny, you really are. Babyfurs, most Zoos, and the countless other subcommunities of furrydom have one thing in common... we don't let who we are impact on other people without their consent. Babyfur has nothing to do with real animals OR real kids, and most zoos are content to buy animal toys from sites like zetacreations and not actually interfere with real animals. You and your kind, on the other hand, seem to go out of your way to harass us and make our legitimate chats in our own private channels difficult, and to harass our users who were never even aware of your own existance until they got trolled. > I'll use more blunt language to get my point across: "What the hell are > you talking about". > > And I'm not the one who created the channel. You might actually want to > use Chanserv to find that out before making an arbitrary statement. You're an op there, and you're defending it. I'm all for free speech, however with the right to speak freely comes the responsibility to use your free speech constructively and not to cause dissent, disunity and hatred.... and above all, not to use it to deliberately push the limits of how just how much you can get on peoples' tits before you get a angry reaction. > > To make it short: WHAT A SICK FUCK ARE YOU DIRTY LITTLE BASTARD? > > Um.. okay. I can be sick for making jokes about nazis and the holocaust, > and you can be sick for condoning zoophilia. Which is worse by society's > standards at large? LET'S SPIN THE WHEEL OF DRAMA TO FIND OUT, PAT! The issue here is not zoos or anything else... the issue here is that your channel and others like it are gathering grounds for the trolls that are making this network a less nice place. We don't interfere with your acts in your own channels, yet you steadfastly refuse to grant us the same courtesy, rights or respect. We don't harm others by what we do, in fact we go out of our way to be mature and sensible about it, yet you seem to represent the sick mind of 14 year olds who don't really know what they're doing at all, and find such things funny becuase you are simply ignorant of the horrid reality of them. You're doing something in hugely bad taste - that's fine... people have different tastes about what is good and what is bad, and we have to tolerate diversity....... much as we think you are a bunch of sick little kids. What I have a problem with is that you do this TO GET ATTENTION. You create channels like #aryanfurs and #eatallfurries which are DESIGNED to harass people and to generally piss them off. Your entire focus is on getting on people's tits! You serve no other purpose here then to annoy people! You're not here to have your own community, you're here to rip it out of the community we at furnet have worked hard to build! You choose to do this in the most low, sick ways imaginable... you exist to offend and annoy people, and because of that, I can see why no reason why people such as you should be allowed on furnet. -A ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:34:55 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > You have never joined the IRC channels in question, therefore you have > no argument. You are assuming, based merely upon the name of the > channel, what its content is. You have no actual knowledge of what we > may or may not be doing in our channel, so your entire argument is > completely invalid. Mind you there'd be no sense in you joining now, as > you'd be banned on sight, but unfortunately that's just the way it is. > On the fact babyfurs etc offend you as much as racism offends us.... we stand for love and accepctance, you stand for hatred, killing, and support for millions of innocent people being tortured and killed. Oh yes, and the fact that different things offend both of us doesn't matter. You harm people, you harm this network by your presence and your activities, we harm no-one and nothing. Regarding your point about having never been in your channels so we can't comment, I *HAVE* been in your channels many times (usually during troll attacks, in order to find out where they are targetting and warn the ops there before you start attacking them, and to set pre-emptive bans). Because I have seen your channels many times with my own eyes, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I have seen them they have been occupied by small minded, moronic kids that have nothing better to do then attempt to spoil the efforts of many furnet residents to simply talk to their friends, I am forced to conclude that you, and your channel, don't stand for anything positive at all, you are simply a gathering place for stupidity, hatred, bigotry and moronic trolling behaviour. -A ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:41:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: "Trolling" > Ashen wrote: > > Hi, recently I've noticed a surge in the ammount of channels on furnet > dedicated to people who hate furs, and who come on furnet only to poke > and jibe at the regular users. > [ ... snip ... ] > These channels exist for the sole purpose of providing a gathering > point for people who are here to make our ircing unpleasant. They come > here solely for the point of annoying us and making chatting difficult. First off, you're starting out with opinions rather than facts. These are fairly far-fetched claims that you're making. Furnet includes individuals from many different walks of life and senses of humour. You're using extreme, over-reactive, generalizing, absolute terms like, "sole purpose" and "only to" in your claims. This is rarely a good way to bring up a point, but I'll try to offer my opinions on the contrary of yours, so that folks might have a better understanding of what is actually going on. My opions are, however, my own, and may not reflect entirely on the opinions of the furnet administrative staff as a collective. If there's some sort of "sole purpose", it's based purely in humor and fun, much like a vast majority of other channels on the network. Most of the regulars in these channels are some of the most level-headed, fun, comedic, intelligent individuals that I've ever had the pleasure to interact with. In order to even come close to grasping that concept, it takes a very clear, non-biased mind. It involves a very strange mindset of both looking in from an outside perspective of what's going on and also knowing far too well what's going on, 'cause you've been on the inside and seen it all. Nobody "hates" anybody here. We may find it humorous at how seriously the people in the (any) fandom take themselves but that doesn't constitute "hate". Of course, if you look at the word "fandom", its root is "fan" or "fanatic". Already, you're dealing with a mindset of extremes and strong feelings. If you question or poke at any of the things that someone is "fanatic" about, you get this incredibly intense, defensive , "fanatic" reaction, because they're blinded by their own feelings on it too much to realize how absurd it may seem to someone else. The kicker to all of this is that the channels in question are run by furries, for furries. Many of them have just as many absurd, "fanatic" things going on somewhere in their mind. The difference is, when they get called out on them, they don't get all hell-bent defensive about it. They poke at themselves right along with the rest of the members of the channel. > In short, they should be banned. Either on a network level, or by a > group of popular channels getting together and agreeing to share > akick/ban masks for these trolls. Here, you use the word "trolls", implying "trolling". I want to know what your definition of "trolling" is. I'd like to see logs of all of this "trolling" that you've witnessed, and how the channels in question are "solely" there for launching some sort of "troll attack". What I have witnessed, just by being there as long as I have, is this: Some of the regulars of the channels in question are also regulars in other channels on the network. They realize how their involvement in some of those channels on the network might be considered absurd to others, so they re-post logs to the other channel. Laughter is a human response to absurdity, and some of the stuff posted is extremely humorous. It's a natural reaction to go witness this stuff for yourself, 'cause sometimes, it's hard to believe that it's actually happening. Some other members of the channel then join the channel that the logs are coming from to view it first-hand. I call it morbid curiosity. Allow me use a VERY extreme case, just as an example. Here is something that I have found to be one of the most disturbing, absurd things that I've yet to witness being in the furry fandom. If you are faint-hearted, easily offended or grossed out, or don't want to be scarred for life, DO NOT CLICK THESE LINKS. This is your fair warning. If you click on it anyway, you're just exhibiting the same morbid curiosity that I mentioned in the above paragraph. Welcome to the club, but don't come crying to me or anyone else. The images are graphic, artistic expressions of pornographic and extreme sexual fettish. If you are under 18, do not click these links. That being said: http://sdcga.com/~atak/TSomme/ass.jpg http://sdcga.com/~atak/TSomme/ohyeah.jpg http://sdcga.com/~atak/TSomme/plantfood.jpg http://sdcga.com/~atak/TSomme/toilet.jpg I look at these images and think, "that's the most absurd, disturbing, weird thing I've ever seen". This stems mostly from my involvement in the Lion King "fandom"; something which I hold very dear to me. To see that someone's mind could take something that I hold dear and apply it to their own fantasies or fettishes just makes me ask "why?" and also makes me laugh because it's just incredibly absurd. If I can't laugh at it, it would just end up making me mad. I'm like, "HAHA! GENITALS FLOATING AWAY NOW!", and that's funny to me as well as the members of the channels in question. > Since the ircops won't ban them (indeed the oper 'Simba' is actually > registered as the founder of some of the troll channels listed above) > and on the times I've talked to him, appears to support their > activities. Therefore it falls to us. My suggestion would be for an > anti-safurs bot, which would operate on a known blacklist of > safurs-based addresses. Yes, I think we're funny. Yes, I'm the current "founder" of a couple of the channels in question. When I'm actually around to witness their activities going beyond the borders of their own channels, and those activities causing the members of other channels to express disdain, I politely ask them to stop what they're doing. If they didn't, I'd help the users of the channels who want them removed do the removing. So far, I haven't had to resort to that. My suggestion to the people who immediately over-react, and are all like, "OMG THIS PERSON SHOULD BE BANNED", would be to turn their actions back on them instead of over-reacting. Just play along. It's an enlightening feeling to be able to laugh at yourself. > Excuse me, but I've sat in #safurs and watched people run through lists > of channels, spamming them and moving on.... I've watched channels get > simply targetted by a group of people from there simply because one > person from that channel doesn't like the owner of said channel. Logs please. > Have you even *READ* www.eatallfurries.com? > It's a community of people who hate furries and, and, barring those that > actually hate themselves, I don't think they qualify as furs, and I > certainly don't think they are a positive presence on our network. I have read it, and your assessment couldn't be any more wrong. Nobody "hates" anyone here. While they might laugh at some of the absurd things that the more "extreme" furries do, they don't "hate" furries. Again, you're taking things way too extreme. In fact, it says in their own FAQ that their words and actions are not to be taken seriously and are used for humorous purposes only. If you don't find it humorous, that's your own shortcoming, not theirs. > All I did was enter the channel and ask about the claim agianst them > and their channel.. The answer pretty much summed up to a "YES". I was > abused, raked over the coals with plenty of Nazi symbol popups, > abusive language, abrasive comments about homosexuals, pretty much the > full spectrum.I was then kicked multiple times then banned. All from > just asking for confirmation about the claim. This is exactly what we find hilarious. They fed you the answer that you were there to hear because it was funny, whether it was true or not. > I've then joined the channel #safurs, and found lists of channels being > worked through by a group of people who join, spam and leave. Logs please. > I admit that it's not all of the people in channels such as #safurs > which participate in such trolling, many of them do, and it seems to be > actively ignored by both the channel management and the furnet > administration. It's not actively ignored by the furnet administration. Some of the more extremist "trolls" have been akilled. It's pointless to do so, though, 'cause they just go out and learn how to proxy around them. In the last couple weeks alone, we've spent many hours trying to improve the proxy detection system that we're using. Some of the open proxies being exploited are using a sort of dual-layer proxy. The IP address which connects to the IRC server is different than that which has the actual open proxy process running on it. There's a secure tunnel set up so that you can't just probe the IP that they're coming from for open ports, 'cause there are no open ports on it. The open ports are on a different, unknown-to-us IP and have the traffic being tunneled through the IP that is known to us. > The furnet admins are constantly telling us, the users, to work around > the safurs problem our own way, for "it is not a network problem, it is > a user problem" as they repeatedly tell us. Ok, fine. I don't have a > problem with that... they do a good job maintaining the servers for us, > and they can't be expected to do everything. I do however object when an > admin first tells us to deal with matters on a channel-by-channel basis, > and then the same admin when faced with a issue like cross-channel > banning for trolls via a bot says the furnet administration should > handle such things. Either leave us alone to handle it ourselves, or > take responsibility and handle it yourself. Either or. You can't say one > thing at one point then simply change your mind hours later simply > because people are sick enough of the safurs (and similar > channels) problem that they will actually do something about it. I think you're misquoting the admins here, to prove your point. Yes, it's up to the users and operators of the individual channels to decide who they don't like and who they want to have removed. At the same time, the moment policy goes outside of a single channel and involves multiple channels, we get leery and suggest against such activities. I'd say that sentiment comes mostly from the fact that it'll end up causing even more drama (as is apparent by this humongous thread already) than it will help to solve. It's easier to get a group of operators of a single channel to agree on a system of policy than it is to get all of the operators of a number of channels to come to an agreement. There's going to be some contention that arises, because some of the folks that will end up with their hostmasks on this "preemptive banning" system are regulars, and sometimes operators of some of the other channels that are also employing this bot. You'll have to come up with some sort of per-channel exclusino base, which brings more complication to the matter. It can be said, then, that with all of the exceptions that have to be made and all of the complications that would arise, the channels should be in a position to handle their own problems individually; a system already in place. > fair nor consistient. It's also hollow. We've been complaining to you > for ages about #safurs and similar and you've dropped the channel, taken > control of it via chanserv..... and done numerous other things.... none > of which actually involve BANNING THE TROLLS. I find this hard to > fathom. Just to re-iterate, some of the more extremists who are, in my definition of "trolling", have been akilled. They just keep coming back under proxies, though, so it just ends up seeming futile (which is why I have taken to improving the proxy scanner). **** > David Formosa wrote: > > If #safurs was found to have been used for co-ordinated trolling > attacks would you consider that a legitimate excuse for the removal of > the channel and the banning of the parties who engaged in that behavour > from the network? Further more would you support admins taking action > of that nature? Yes, which is why I now am the founder and operator of it. There are a few folks who go a little overboard with their actions in other channels, and I'm there to let them know when they're crossing the line. If they continue, I take administrative action on them. > No Flooding and No Harrassment. Booby has already admitted to spamming > the Gay Communist Mario (or whatever it was). If the server doesn't kick you off repeatedly for "Excess flood", flooding is not occuring. Using ASCII art and "bigwrite" banners are not "flooding". Copying and pasting logs from other channels or e-mails or web pages is not "flooding". Flooding is malicious saturation of your link to the server with a bulk, continuous stream of traffic. Harrassment is a gray area, and I've since removed it from the MOTD on lion. If we started getting into governing "harrassment", we'd have to start implementing a system of justice and jury. I'm not willing to put forth that kind of effort. If someone feels that they're being "harrassed", they're free to put the "harrassing" individuals on ignore. If those network-provided tools are made ineffective by proxying, it can be brought up to the administrative staff, and we'll work on removing open proxies from the network or politely ask the individual(s) to leave you alone. Be prepared to provide logs of the harrassment and ignore/ban evading, though. **** > Aerocoon wrote: > > Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in > Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate speech, > denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a > criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized > human being. This particular issue has been discussed in excruciating length between some of the administrators of Furnet, including panther's administrator. It was agreed, at that point, that channel topics, which can be viewed by anyone on the network using a /list, which included statements that German law defined as "illegal" would be disallowed. It was at that point, that I set the channel up in services to only allow me to make changes to the topic. If one of the users in the channel wanted to set a topic, it would have to go through me first to determine its legality. If you want to try to prove to any governing agency that live Internet chat data is illegal and not just a freedom of expression, be my guest. My feeling is that you'll get laughed at. "OH NO! HE POSTED A SERIES OF ASCII CHARACTERS WHICH LOOKS LIKE A SWASTIKA! SO ILLEGAL! HURRHURRR!". Get over yourselves. The #Aryanfurs channel is completely based in satire, absurdity, and humor. There is nobody in there who is actually talking about inciting riots or hate crimes. It's all just a big joke. If you can't laugh at its absurdity, you're far too blinded by your own feelings on the matter. > Talking about zoophilia is legal. Talking about Aryan dominance and > using Nazi symbols and advocating racial hatred in Germany is illegal. Yeah, that's if you're being serious about it or actually doing it in the first place. Even if it was serious or things were being "said" which were illegal, Hurga has every right to K:line the individuals in that channel who have posted things that German law considers to be "illegal" from using his server individually. If the person is not using his server, the data doesn't originate from anything that he's hosting and he is therefore not responsible for it. We're missing the point entirely, though. Nobody is actually advocating racism or white supremecy or anything like it. They're poking fun at it, lauging at it, and making a mockery of it by being completely absurd about it. I could understand your objections if they were truly racial extremists, but they're not. If someone were to go in there and truly indicate that they were supporting racism, they'd get laughed at, mocked, kicked/banned from the channel and called "racist". You're blowing it all out of proportion because you don't actually understand what is going on. You're trying to get rid of something based purely on speculation and technicalities. I find that to be a pretty shallow and intolerant. **** > Foxcub wrote: > > Ban the trolls. We're setting an dangerous precedent here, > effectively saying that no matter how far a channel degrades, no > matter how tasteless its topics, it's welcome on the network. I find > that difficult to accept. Your opinion is duely noted. I tend to disagree because I find it to be harmless and amusing. Who are we to censor content and make people feel unwelcome because their sense of humor differs from that of a few other vocal minorities on the network? That's hardly fair. This is neither here, nor there, though, because the issue lies in "trolling" and not content of individual channels. In all of this entire discussion, I have yet to see anyone post links to logs or post actual log snippets to back up their arguments of "trolling". If I see any of those, I'll be glad to analyze them, determine if they're actually "trolling", and take care of the problem in an administrative fasion. **** > Bobby wrote: > > Also, to Hurga, thank you for posting a bunch of german gobbledegook > which nobody can understand. I'm sorry, Babelfish does not provide a > very accurate translation of such legal text. That wasn't Hurga. He actually bothers providing translations for German terms on a predominantly English mailing list. It was Juergen Rosskamp, another German fur, who posted the german law in German and only in German. --- Scott 'Simba' G [address redacted]@pridelands.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>, <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: "Trolling" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:52:00 -0800 > That wasn't Hurga. He actually bothers providing translations for > German terms on a predominantly English mailing list. It was Juergen > Rosskamp, another German fur, who posted the german law in German and only > in German. > Guys, I think Bobby was being sarcastic when he called him "Hurga." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:55:31 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashen [mailto:[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:30 PM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: RE: #aryanfurs > > Um, your trolls have caused repeated problems for many large channels > on this network. You're dishonouring and laughing at the millions of > good people who gave up their lives to give you the freedom to make > your little "jokes"... freedom that you now take for granted.... > which you only have becuase of these people you are disrespecting. Aside from your channel, #babyfurs, and a couple individual users, I don't see anyone really stepping forward to complain. As for freedom - yes, many millions of people did die 60 years ago in order for us to enjoy the freedoms we have today. And I will not permit anybody to tell me what I can and cannot joke about, or can and cannot say, because anyone who wishes to tell me that I cannot say such things is doing little more than insulting those people who died for our freedom of speech and freedom to live our lives the way we do. I loathe you babyfurs, but as long as you're not breaking the law I don't care what you choose to do, but I am well within my rights to make fun of you for doing it. > You're a sick and twisted individual if you find this shit funny > you really are. I never said I found the holocaust, nazism, killing of jews, bigotry, racism or anything else funny, to be specific. Although I do find you to be funny, so if that makes me a Nazi, so be it. You again demonstrate your lack of ability to get the point. > You're an op there, and you're defending it. I'm all for free speech, > however with the right to speak freely comes the responsibility to use > your free speech constructively and not to cause dissent, disunity and > hatred.... No. Free speech is a black and white concept. You either have it or you do not. There is no exceptions, there is no gray area. I can talk about whatever I choose to so long as I am not directly causing others harm or inciting acts of harm in doing so. We do not do either of these. We keep it contained to our own channel community. This is a private IRC network, so the laws of free speech don't necessarily apply here - but the admins have already basically made their statement on the matter by choosing to allow our channel to continue. > The issue here is not zoos or anything else... the issue here is that > your channel and others like it are gathering grounds for the trolls that > are making this network a less nice place. Proof? I have no control over what extremist trolls from outside our channel community choose to do. And you made your preferences an issue when you chose to begin to hurl personal insults at us. > What I have a problem with is that you do this TO GET ATTENTION. You > create channels like #aryanfurs and #eatallfurries which are DESIGNED > to harass people and to generally piss them off. Your entire focus is > on getting on people's tits! Again, you demonstrate that you have never entered either channel, as you do not get it. You have never looked at the eat all furries forum. You have never attempted to see what is going on. > You're not here to have your own community, you're here to rip it out > of the community we at furnet have worked hard to build! Considering I'm one of the people who helped "build" this community and FurNet the way it is now, I find this statement rather laughable. > You choose to do this in the most low, sick ways imaginable... you > exist to offend and annoy people, and because of that, I can see why > no reason why people such as you should be allowed on furnet. Because we're furries, and this is our IRC network as much as it is yours. Get used to it. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: "Trolling" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:04:49 -0500 No, I actually did get the two mixed up. Both make the same argument against #aryanfurs. I don't care about either of their opinions, natch. -----Original Message----- From: verix [mailto:[address redacted]@furryse.cx] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:52 PM To: Scott 'Simba' G; [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: "Trolling" > That wasn't Hurga. He actually bothers providing translations > for German terms on a predominantly English mailing list. It was > Juergen Rosskamp, another German fur, who posted the german law in > German and only in German. > Guys, I think Bobby was being sarcastic when he called him "Hurga." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> References: <043d01c3e90f$692f61c0$0100a8c0@marshmallow> Subject: Re: "Trolling" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:09:27 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:04 PM Subject: RE: "Trolling" > No, I actually did get the two mixed up. Both make the same argument > against #aryanfurs. I don't care about either of their opinions, natch. > Oh. The way you said "Hurga" in your sentence, it sure seemed like you were cutting the guy down. My mistake, I take back what I said. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:24:36 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: "Trolling" To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --- Scott 'Simba' G <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> wrote: > > > Ashen wrote: > > > > Hi, recently I've noticed a surge in the ammount of channels on furnet > > dedicated to people who hate furs, and who come on furnet only to poke > > and jibe at the regular users. > > [ ... snip ... ] > > These channels exist for the sole purpose of providing a gathering > > point for people who are here to make our ircing unpleasant. They come > > here solely for the point of annoying us and making chatting > difficult. > > First off, you're starting out with opinions rather than facts. > These are fairly far-fetched claims that you're making. Furnet includes > individuals from many different walks of life and senses of humour. > You're using extreme, over-reactive, generalizing, absolute terms like, > "sole purpose" and "only to" in your claims. This is rarely a good way > to > bring up a point, but I'll try to offer my opinions on the contrary of > yours, so that folks might have a better understanding of what is > actually > going on. My opions are, however, my own, and may not reflect entirely > on > the opinions of the furnet administrative staff as a collective. No, these are facts. I have seen this myself, on several occasions, I have seen this trolling occur in channel while ircops were sitting there, and for the most part doing absolutely nothing about it. You, Simba, are one of the worst. You report to attempt to curtail these sad individuals from doing any harm to other channels by "taking administrative action" on those who troll outside the channel, yet I have discussed this with you several times and you are frankly unwilling to do anything but sit there and laugh. I've seen you in channel while this trolling was going on and you did nothing.... fair enough, you might have been idle... but you should not let any channel detorriate to the extent that it becomes a haven for trolls that operate *while ircops are in channel* totally without fear, because they know they won't be punished. > If there's some sort of "sole purpose", it's based purely in humor > and fun, much like a vast majority of other channels on the network. > Most of the regulars in these channels are some of the most > level-headed, > fun, comedic, intelligent individuals that I've ever had the pleasure to > interact with. In order to even come close to grasping that concept, it > takes a very clear, non-biased mind. It involves a very strange mindset > of both looking in from an outside perspective of what's going on and > also > knowing far too well what's going on, 'cause you've been on the inside > and > seen it all. Your humour and fun comes at the expense of millions of maimed, killed and otherwise harmed people. It's a very, very sick kind of humour. I will accepct most anything on the internet. Ages ago I was very offended by the entire idea of 'zoo'... however after a while, I did get used to it and now tolerate it easily. This is not the same as that however, what you do is: * disrespectul to our common history, and to the millions who died for the sake of freedoms you take for granted by making your jokes * not contained to your channel, it spills over into other channels and harms them too, despite your rather limited efforts to make some gesture at containing it Also, all the people I've seen from #safurs and similar channels have been either trolls, or moronic individuals with an excepctionally low standard of behaviour and decency. I have no problem with the latter existing, but the former should NOT be allowed on furnet as they only come here to cause annoyance and generally be a problem for us. > Nobody "hates" anybody here. We may find it humorous at how > seriously the people in the (any) fandom take themselves but that > doesn't > constitute "hate". Of course, if you look at the word "fandom", its > root > is "fan" or "fanatic". Already, you're dealing with a mindset of > extremes > and strong feelings. If you question or poke at any of the things that > someone is "fanatic" about, you get this incredibly intense, defensive , > "fanatic" reaction, because they're blinded by their own feelings on it > too much to realize how absurd it may seem to someone else. The kicker > to > all of this is that the channels in question are run by furries, for > furries. Many of them have just as many absurd, "fanatic" things going > on > somewhere in their mind. The difference is, when they get called out on > them, they don't get all hell-bent defensive about it. They poke at > themselves right along with the rest of the members of the channel. Your laughter at furs certainly does not qualify in any way as a postive reaction! I find it strange that someone who would laugh at his fellow furs deserves to be an admin of furnet at all. These satirical websites are fine, so long as their humour is based on things that are true, and it doesn't overstep the limits of decency by being designed simply to be sick and offensive to anyone that beholds it. I find the #safurs etc website stories and such articles are more anti-fur then simply furries laughing at what their own community has become. I don't have a problem with satire, I don't have a problem with humour, I do have a problem when people from your group take it as their mission to disrupt the chats of legit users of furnet and to make usage of their channels difficult. I also have a problem with furnet supporting a channel which seems to me fundamentally anti-fur. I don't mind satire, I don't mind humour, but some of the content on websites like somethingawful.com and the portal of evil call furries 'sick' and numerous worse things. Why should we as a community put up with and even provide supporting channel services to a group that thinks so little of us? > > In short, they should be banned. Either on a network level, or by a > > group of popular channels getting together and agreeing to share > > akick/ban masks for these trolls. > > Here, you use the word "trolls", implying "trolling". Like it or not, there are many trolls associated with #safurs and similar channels. I don't claim ALL of you are trolls, but I think many are. > I want to > know > what your definition of "trolling" is. Trolling is joining a channel and attempting to join in the conversation of that channel in such a way so as to provoke a negative reaction from the channel residents, in short, to join a channel with the express purpose of making the people there unhappy and lowering the quality of the channel. Trolling is basically seeking to harm channels by altering the flow of the conversation there towards negative ends and generally attempting to disrupt and/or stop channel conversation. Various techniques are used to do this, from flooding, to spamming inapproperaite material, to pretending to be a legit user but after a few hours, starting to make comments that cast other channel members (who the troll doesn't know) in a very bad light - even outright lies that would be taken seriously by the channel users are used to cause disruption and disharmony in channels. > I'd like to see logs of all of > this "trolling" that you've witnessed, and how the channels in question > are "solely" there for launching some sort of "troll attack". What I > have > witnessed, just by being there as long as I have, is this: You have the logs yourself in your scrollback buffer! Scroll back a few weeks in #safurs and you will see it... Heck, if you were actually active in #furnet you would see people complain about it and, should you be bothered to check #safurs at the time, you will find people there co-ordinating the attacks....... > Some of the regulars of the channels in question are also regulars > in > other channels on the network. They realize how their involvement in > some > of those channels on the network might be considered absurd to others, > so > they re-post logs to the other channel. Laughter is a human response to > absurdity, and some of the stuff posted is extremely humorous. It's a > natural reaction to go witness this stuff for yourself, 'cause > sometimes, > it's hard to believe that it's actually happening. Some other members > of > the channel then join the channel that the logs are coming from to view > it > first-hand. I call it morbid curiosity. Firstly, posting content unsuitable for a channel directly to it, in breach of the channel's rules, constitutes grounds for being banned from that channel. Secondly, if many people do this, all coming from the same origin channel (#safurs) and if they all do it at the same time and for the same reason (typically someone says the name of a channel there and it gets trolled) then it is a trolling attack! > If you click on it anyway, you're just exhibiting the same morbid > curiosity that I mentioned in the above paragraph. Welcome to the club, > but don't come crying to me or anyone else. The images are graphic, > artistic expressions of pornographic and extreme sexual fettish. If you > are under 18, do not click these links. That being said: You're just as bad as the rest of the #safurs Simba.... you deliberately seek to burn people for their curiousity. You bait them and then punish them for responding, you, in short, diddn't have any reason for posting those links apart from wanting to show people something they found offensive. > > Since the ircops won't ban them (indeed the oper 'Simba' is actually > > registered as the founder of some of the troll channels listed above) > > and on the times I've talked to him, appears to support their > > activities. Therefore it falls to us. My suggestion would be for an > > anti-safurs bot, which would operate on a known blacklist of > > safurs-based addresses. > > Yes, I think we're funny. Yes, I'm the current "founder" of a > couple > of the channels in question. When I'm actually around to witness their > activities going beyond the borders of their own channels, and those > activities causing the members of other channels to express disdain, I > politely ask them to stop what they're doing. If they didn't, I'd help > the users of the channels who want them removed do the removing. So > far, > I haven't had to resort to that. You don't do anything. You just sit there. You're useless at dealing with trolling attacks. The number of times people have complained to the furnet admins about #safurs etc relative to the number of interventions furnet staff have made on behalf of their users is a shameful comparison indeed. Some (they know who they are) genuinely try to solve this problem, but you are not of that category, you seem to encourage it. > > All I did was enter the channel and ask about the claim agianst them > > and their channel.. The answer pretty much summed up to a "YES". I was > > abused, raked over the coals with plenty of Nazi symbol popups, > > abusive language, abrasive comments about homosexuals, pretty much the > > full spectrum.I was then kicked multiple times then banned. All from > > just asking for confirmation about the claim. > > This is exactly what we find hilarious. They fed you the answer > that > you were there to hear because it was funny, whether it was true or > not. This behaviour is immature and stupid, yes. But it's the fault of people stupid enough to go there that they experience this. I don't advocate closing #safurs becuase of the fact that it is full of excepctionally immature people, I advocate removing it because the trolls there use it as a gathering point to attack other channels. > > I've then joined the channel #safurs, and found lists of channels > being > > worked through by a group of people who join, spam and leave. > > Logs please. I don't save logs from troll attacks because I've learnt that the furnet admins, much as they do a good job maintaining the servers being linked, simply do not want to intervene on any kind of 'channel issue'. As such, all you can really do is just ban them the hell out of your channels and wait to see if they come back, and if they do, reban them till they don't. The furnet admins don't really want to get involved, and I can't blame them, and I've given up complaining to them they should do something, they always say 'users should handle it'..... so that's why I proposed the bot idea. > It's not actively ignored by the furnet administration. Some of > the > more extremist "trolls" have been akilled. It's pointless to do so, > though, 'cause they just go out and learn how to proxy around them. In > the last couple weeks alone, we've spent many hours trying to improve > the > proxy detection system that we're using. Some of the open proxies being > exploited are using a sort of dual-layer proxy. The IP address which > connects to the IRC server is different than that which has the actual > open proxy process running on it. There's a secure tunnel set up so > that > you can't just probe the IP that they're coming from for open ports, > 'cause there are no open ports on it. The open ports are on a > different, > unknown-to-us IP and have the traffic being tunneled through the IP that > is known to us. The first worthwhile contribution yet! I run my own irc network elsewhere and I've had hundreds of connections a minitue from attack bots using open proxies to try and kill my server.... They did not succede becuase I implemented very harsh proxy checks on them, however I've never had to deal with the kind of one-sided proxy that you describe here, so my good hopes go with you as you attempt to combat this. Seriously, I'm grateful for your efforts to curb the use of abused proxies on furnet, and I can appreciate somewhat how difficult this is. > > The furnet admins are constantly telling us, the users, to work around > > the safurs problem our own way, for "it is not a network problem, it > is > > a user problem" as they repeatedly tell us. Ok, fine. I don't have a > > problem with that... they do a good job maintaining the servers for > us, > > and they can't be expected to do everything. I do however object when > an > > admin first tells us to deal with matters on a channel-by-channel > basis, > > and then the same admin when faced with a issue like cross-channel > > banning for trolls via a bot says the furnet administration should > > handle such things. Either leave us alone to handle it ourselves, or > > take responsibility and handle it yourself. Either or. You can't say > one > > thing at one point then simply change your mind hours later simply > > because people are sick enough of the safurs (and similar > > channels) problem that they will actually do something about it. > > I think you're misquoting the admins here, to prove your point. > Yes, it's up to the users and operators of the individual channels to > decide who they don't like and who they want to have removed. At the > same > time, the moment policy goes outside of a single channel and involves > multiple channels, we get leery and suggest against such activities. > I'd > say that sentiment comes mostly from the fact that it'll end up causing > even more drama (as is apparent by this humongous thread already) than > it > will help to solve. It's easier to get a group of operators of a single > channel to agree on a system of policy than it is to get all of the > operators of a number of channels to come to an agreement. There's > going > to be some contention that arises, because some of the folks that will > end > up with their hostmasks on this "preemptive banning" system are > regulars, > and sometimes operators of some of the other channels that are also > employing this bot. You'll have to come up with some sort of > per-channel > exclusino base, which brings more complication to the matter. It can be > said, then, that with all of the exceptions that have to be made and all > of the complications that would arise, the channels should be in a > position to handle their own problems individually; a system already in > place. If you don't want to help protect individual channels, because you don't consider it your job to do so, then that's fine......but someone will, and I hope that a group of channel ops get together and agree on a common, shared ban policy regarding #safurs and similar channels. This is starting to happen now, with serveral channels I know implementing this policy. What has not happened yet (to my knowledge) is a system whereby bans are simply shared transparently across channels for the purposes of abuse prevention. This is the next logical step in our efforts to keep the trolls who have nothing to do but harass us out of our channels. If you want to help us, great! If you don't tough, if the need is there and you won't help us then we'll do it anyway, simply because there is a need for such a system, and if the chanops want it, it will become a reality. > > fair nor consistient. It's also hollow. We've been complaining to you > > for ages about #safurs and similar and you've dropped the channel, > taken > > control of it via chanserv..... and done numerous other things.... > none > > of which actually involve BANNING THE TROLLS. I find this hard to > > fathom. > > Just to re-iterate, some of the more extremists who are, in my > definition of "trolling", have been akilled. They just keep coming back > under proxies, though, so it just ends up seeming futile (which is why I > have taken to improving the proxy scanner). Good, that's some progress right there. I wish you the best of luck improving your scanner. > > David Formosa wrote: > > > > If #safurs was found to have been used for co-ordinated trolling > > attacks would you consider that a legitimate excuse for the removal of > > the channel and the banning of the parties who engaged in that > behavour > > from the network? Further more would you support admins taking action > > of that nature? > > Yes, which is why I now am the founder and operator of it. There > are > a few folks who go a little overboard with their actions in other > channels, and I'm there to let them know when they're crossing the > line. If they continue, I take administrative action on them. The success of this method is questionable. I would be in far more favour of simply akilling the trolls again, again, again, and as many times is as necessary to remove them from furnet. > > No Flooding and No Harrassment. Booby has already admitted to > spamming > > the Gay Communist Mario (or whatever it was). > > If the server doesn't kick you off repeatedly for "Excess flood", > flooding is not occuring. Using ASCII art and "bigwrite" banners are > not > "flooding". Copying and pasting logs from other channels or e-mails or > web pages is not "flooding". Flooding is malicious saturation of your > link to the server with a bulk, continuous stream of traffic. Never seen anyone being kicked from channels for 'flooding' by a bot? Channels define their own limits for what 'flooding' is. > > > > **** > > > Aerocoon wrote: > > > > Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in > > Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate > speech, > > denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a > > criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized > > human being. > > This particular issue has been discussed in excruciating length > between some of the administrators of Furnet, including panther's > administrator. It was agreed, at that point, that channel topics, which > can be viewed by anyone on the network using a /list, which included > statements that German law defined as "illegal" would be disallowed. It > was at that point, that I set the channel up in services to only allow > me > to make changes to the topic. If one of the users in the channel wanted > to set a topic, it would have to go through me first to determine its > legality. > Better, but the trolls are still there. > If you want to try to prove to any governing agency that live > Internet chat data is illegal and not just a freedom of expression, be > my > guest. My feeling is that you'll get laughed at. "OH NO! HE POSTED A > SERIES OF ASCII CHARACTERS WHICH LOOKS LIKE A SWASTIKA! SO > ILLEGAL! HURRHURRR!". Get over yourselves. The #Aryanfurs channel is > completely based in satire, absurdity, and humor. There is nobody in > there who is actually talking about inciting riots or hate crimes. It's > all just a big joke. If you can't laugh at its absurdity, you're far > too > blinded by your own feelings on the matter. I don't care if's a joke or not, if your community is going into other channels for the express purpose of pissing them off by pasting things deliberately designed to anger and annoy them then it's trolling, and these individuals deserve to be banned! > > Talking about zoophilia is legal. Talking about Aryan dominance and > > using Nazi symbols and advocating racial hatred in Germany is illegal. > > Yeah, that's if you're being serious about it or actually doing it > in > the first place. Even if it was serious or things were being "said" > which > were illegal, Hurga has every right to K:line the individuals in that > channel who have posted things that German law considers to be "illegal" > from using his server individually. If the person is not using his > server, the data doesn't originate from anything that he's hosting and > he > is therefore not responsible for it. We're missing the point entirely, > though. Nobody is actually advocating racism or white supremecy or > anything like it. They're poking fun at it, lauging at it, and making a > mockery of it by being completely absurd about it. I could understand > your objections if they were truly racial extremists, but they're > not. If someone were to go in there and truly indicate that they were > supporting racism, they'd get laughed at, mocked, kicked/banned from the > channel and called "racist". You're blowing it all out of proportion > because you don't actually understand what is going on. You're trying > to > get rid of something based purely on speculation and technicalities. I > find that to be a pretty shallow and intolerant. Erm, I see trolls spamming channels... I see they come from #safurs, I see the ircops doing some good work it (like you on the proxy scanner) but mostly not coping with the problem. I propose we, the users, implement our own solution. What more is there then this? Individual channels would decide if they wanted such a bot or not.... the furnet admins should have nothing to do with it, as it is a matter for channels themselves. > **** > > > Foxcub wrote: > > > > Ban the trolls. We're setting an dangerous precedent here, > > effectively saying that no matter how far a channel degrades, no > > matter how tasteless its topics, it's welcome on the network. I find > > that difficult to accept. > > Your opinion is duely noted. I tend to disagree because I find it > to > be harmless and amusing. Who are we to censor content and make people > feel unwelcome because their sense of humor differs from that of a few > other vocal minorities on the network? That's hardly fair. to "make people feel unwelcome because their sense of humor differs from that of a few other vocal minorities on the network" is EXACTLY what the #safurs trolls are doing...... excepct they are doing it in the channels of others! This is both not fair, and it's offensive in both the senses of being deliberately designed to offend, and in the sense that is is an attack on these channels. > This is neither here, nor there, though, because the issue lies in > "trolling" and not content of individual channels. In all of this > entire > discussion, I have yet to see anyone post links to logs or post actual > log > snippets to back up their arguments of "trolling". If I see any of > those, > I'll be glad to analyze them, determine if they're actually "trolling", > and take care of the problem in an administrative fasion. > Pay more attention to #safurs when you're there, and actually bother listening to the complaints in #furnet in future? Maybe you might actually catch the targetting happening in channel as I've done several times... and I neither idle there nor need ircops to see it... you certainly should be able to. > -A (I'm going to retire from this discussion soon I think, it's become a fireball and I'm tired of it. I recognise that little will probably come of it and that I'm probably wasting my breath... I can only flag the problem, acting on the problem in a coherent way to remove the trolls requires more resources then any one person has) ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: [address redacted]@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:34:39 EST Subject: Babyfurs To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --part1_f5.36fab2af.2d4ed8ff_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "On the fact babyfurs etc .... we stand for love and accepctance" You say that babyfurs stand for "love and acceptance", but do you also stand for stalking and harassment of children as well? I find it hard to be sympathetic to babyfurs when I consider the fact that I, and a few other teenagers that work with me at a wildlife rehabilitation center, were actively stalked by a babyfur who I'll call "ToddlerTiger". How'd he find us, you ask? I had seen this fellow walking around in a furry convention t-shirt, and asked him if he was a furry. That's it. That's all he needed to come to the center every Saturday from 3:00 to 5:00, and asking around for my friends and I. Eventually, enough was enough. Afraid for our safety, our supervisor ended up having to call the police, and a restraining order had to be put against the individual in question. But seriously, don't try and feed us this bullshit about babyfurs being "completely innocent" when this freak wouldn't leave my friends and I alone. So I hope you can understand why I find anything related to babyfurs to be extremely offensive. Sure, you say #safurs and #eatallfurries are meeting places for trolls. However, #safurs and #eatallfurries most certainly do not partake in any illegal activities such as pedophilia, and they most certainly do not stalk children in real life. - Kibeth --part1_f5.36fab2af.2d4ed8ff_boundary-- Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:42:18 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: Babyfurs To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org erm, have you considered the fact that you met this person at a convention and NOT on #babyfurs probably means that he is an outcast from #babyfurs and the babyfur community in general..... and that he is probably not even a member of babyfurry, he just USES babyfurry to give him an innocent-ish look, much like some trolls use #safurs to make them look innnocent, and some rare people with geninue nazi sympathies could use #aryanfurs' jokes and humour to hide behind? Have you ever actually considered that pedophilles are always banned from #babyfurs... in fact I've seen a recent case whereby someone was complained against on such grounds and swiftly banned from the channel by an admin. We do not like pedophilles at all, in fact, as we are ageplayers, we detest them even more then most people, and I've known infantalists actually force the shutdown of pedophillic sites before (yes, it happens... we are that anti-pedophillia). I've an old friend from another network who used to make it a hobby to go around shutting down pedophiles and their websites, via contacting their ISPs and hosting providers... Don't believe someone is a member of a particular community just because they say so, or look like it. Pedophilles are bad, bad people and they're not above *lying* or trying to disguise themselves inside things thare are actually good, in order to accomplish their ends. -A ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> References: <20040201224218.96329.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Babyfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:50:24 -0800 > We do not like pedophilles at all, in fact, as we are ageplayers, Isn't that a Catch-22? You like to be a child, but at the same time you hate people who love children? So does that mean you don't love children, or what? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 18:36:43 -0500 To: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> From: Andrew Koch <[address redacted]@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Babyfurs Cc: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> At 2:50 PM -0800 2/1/04, verix wrote: > > We do not like pedophilles at all, in fact, as we are ageplayers, > >Isn't that a Catch-22? You like to be a child, but at the same time you hate >people who love children? > >So does that mean you don't love children, or what? Not at all... We hate people who would exploit and HURT a child. I must impress upon you that there are no Babyfurs who would want to do ANYTHING sexual with a child! Those who would, and bring that to light in public, are quickly excommunicated from our sub-group. The driving force behind Babyfur role play, and by extension infantilistic RP, is to see YOURSELF as a child, being cared for and loved. NOT being sexually molested! Now, I'm not saying that there aren't furs out there who DO get off on that, but it is a rare to non-existent to find them in #Babyfurs. I Myself am a Babyfur. I RP both a 4 Year Old Anthro Puppy, as well as an adult who takes care of other cubs/babies. I have been involved in infantilism for nearly 15 years, and rarely has anything sexual come into it. Do not confuse Adult Babies (Babyfurs) with Diaper Lovers (Diaperfurs). Diaperfurs use the diaper as a fetish object, much in the way that a foot fetishist uses shoes. Diaperfurs do not usually engage in Ageplay. If you have any more questions, PLEASE do not hesitate to ask me, OFF LIST. Let's not clog up this list with un-related traffic. -- Andrew Koch - KI4CUN Website: http://www.lildobe.net Maintain thy airspeed lest the earth shall rise up and smite thee! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:41:35 -0600 From: Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: An experiment in futility... examining banlists On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:45:49 +0000 Torne <[address redacted]@wolfpuppy.org.uk> wrote: > Your survey misses channels using bots, as they tend to use dynamic bans > which do not remain set on the channel due to lack of space. My bot > dynamically generates them from its database of abusive users, and if it > were to apply them all would quickly fill the channel banlist many times > over; there are currently over a thousand masks which are 'banned'. My survey was looking at the number and age of bans in medium/large channels. A channel with a bot that operates like yours most likely result in a channel with only a few relatively recent bans, and thus indicate competant management of a channel. The channels I thought would be most suseptable to trolls actually had a very low number of recent bans. Whether this was done by a bot, or a channel op, it showed good channel management. The channels with the most bans, also had the largest number of outdated, useless, and redundant bans, thus indicating poor channel management. Ashen's orignal complaint was that of a limited number of akickbans per channel, so I thought I would examine some channels to see what was pushing those limits. If I had come across a channel with 40 bans, all unique and made within a couple days, I could understand. But this was not the case in any of the channels I surveyed. So either the channels he frequents get an extraordinary number of trolls and troublemakers regularly, or those that run the said channels dont know how to manage them properly. --Teh -- My mailbox is NOT an advertisement medium. Tehrasha Darkon My address is NOT for sale, lease or rent. [address redacted]@netins.net Send me spam, lose your account. Get it? TINLC-1372 http://tehrasha.mamehost.com/bastard B.A.S.T.A.R.D --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 18:40:54 -0600 From: Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: Babyfurs On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:42:18 +0000 (GMT) Ashen <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > erm, have you considered the fact that you met this person at a convention > and NOT on #babyfurs probably means that he is an outcast from #babyfurs Try reading how he met this person again... > Don't believe someone is a member of a particular community just because > they say so, or look like it. This is the first thing I have heard you say that I completely agree with. Now, if you would follow that advice yourself, we would all be better off. --Teh -- My mailbox is NOT an advertisement medium. Tehrasha Darkon My address is NOT for sale, lease or rent. [address redacted]@netins.net Send me spam, lose your account. Get it? TINLC-1372 http://tehrasha.mamehost.com/bastard B.A.S.T.A.R.D --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: [address redacted]@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:56:19 EST Subject: Re: Babyfurs To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --part1_1db.199502df.2d4efa33_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cut and paste from an e-mail to another user. "Okay. Perhaps I was not entirely clear in my e-mail about how the situation came about. While I was giving a raptor presentation at the floor where I work, I saw a man wearing a Further Confusion t-shirt in the crowd. After the presentation, I walked up to the man and asked him if he was a furry. He said yes, and his name was "ToddlerTiger." I said hello, and that my name was "Kibeth", and it was cool to see another furry. That was the entirety of any direct contact I had with this man. I did NOT tell him my name (although it was on my name tag.) I did NOT give him any contact information. I did NOT tell him 'Hey, I'm 14! Here's my e-mail!" I did NOT tell him that I usually work on Saturdays. All I said was "Hi, are you a furry?" "Oh, awesome, my furry name is Kibeth." "Have a nice time at the museum! I'm glad you enjoyed my presentation." So in short, I didn't do anything to solicit this guy's attention I believe, in any way or form. Part of my job is to talk to visitors. I said about THREE SENTENCES to this guy. I also apologize for my previous e-mail. I do realize now that by generalizing all babyfurs, despite my rather unfortunate encounter, is rather silly and not at all fair. Something in an e-mail really hit a nerve with me, and I responded without thinking. Best regards, Kibeth" --part1_1db.199502df.2d4efa33_boundary-- From: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> To: "Andrew Koch" <[address redacted]@yahoo.com> Cc: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: Babyfurs Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:19:44 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Koch" <[address redacted]@yahoo.com> To: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> Cc: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Babyfurs > Not at all... We hate people who would exploit and HURT a child. > > I must impress upon you that there are no Babyfurs who would want to > do ANYTHING sexual with a child! Those who would, and bring that to > light in public, are quickly excommunicated from our sub-group. You're confused. I was talking about pedophiles, not child molestors. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "James 'Arcturus Nova' Garrett" <[address redacted]@gmx.net> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: IRC issues Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 02:08:39 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C3E931.79243070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to point out to all and everyone, that if anyone wishes to = use a quite fur-friendly alternative network, run by sensible admins who = take care of issues, you can. Come to DarkMyst, at irc.darkmyst.org and such. We've got servers all = over the world and the like and we'll deal with troublemakers ;) Arcturus Nova ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C3E931.79243070-- To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:16:58 -0500 Subject: Re: IRC issues From: Erik B McDarby <[address redacted]@juno.com> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 02:08:39 -0000 "James 'Arcturus Nova' Garrett" <[address redacted]@gmx.net> writes: > I would like to point out to all and everyone, that if anyone wishes > to use a quite fur-friendly alternative network, run by sensible > admins who take care of issues, you can. > > Come to DarkMyst, at irc.darkmyst.org and such. We've got servers > all over the world and the like and we'll deal with troublemakers > ;) And there is also MorphForest, at palace.morphforest.com and such. Even though it might be quite new and have a few recognizable channels, such as the few that left FurNet in the past, we have a few servers and we'll deal with troublemakers ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: IRC issues Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:29:00 -0500 Yes thank you all for advertising your wonderful oh-so-much-better IRC alternatives to FurNet on the FurNet mailing list. We'll all be certain to be visiting your wonderful IRC networks sometime any day now. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:06:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: "Trolling" On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, Ashen wrote: > No, these are facts. I have seen this myself, on several occasions, I > have seen this trolling occur in channel while ircops were sitting > there, and for the most part doing absolutely nothing about it. I was pointing out that your use of extremist and absolute terms, such as "sole purpose" and "only to" were based in opinion. It is NOT a fact that the "only" reason we're here is to troll other channels and spread "hate". This is your own assesment on the situation and is based PURELY in your opinion. > You, Simba, are one of the worst. You report to attempt to curtail > these sad individuals from doing any harm to other channels by "taking > administrative action" on those who troll outside the channel, yet I > have discussed this with you several times and you are frankly > unwilling to do anything but sit there and laugh. I've seen you in > channel while this trolling was going on and you did nothing.... fair > enough, you might have been idle... but you should not let any channel > detorriate to the extent that it becomes a haven for trolls that > operate *while ircops are in channel* totally without fear, because > they know they won't be punished. Mostly, 'cause so far, no actual "harm" is happening. I haven't needed to intervene. Posting logs from another channel into their own is not harmful. It is not a "haven for trolls". It's a place to hang out and carry on and laugh, just like everywhere else. If I'm not idle and I'm actually around during an overly active involvement in the affairs of other channels, I'll say something to them about it. They usually pipe down and drop it. At the same time, if they're in a channel, and the members of that channel don't like what they have to say, they have the option to either play along with their absurdity and laugh back at them, or take their own action and ban them. Trying to out-troll a troll is kinda fun. If they are evading a ban, bring it to my attention. Banning someone BEFORE they do something, though, is bad form, in my opinion. > Your humour and fun comes at the expense of millions of maimed, killed > and otherwise harmed people. It's a very, very sick kind of humour. I > will accepct most anything on the internet. Ages ago I was very > offended by the entire idea of 'zoo'... however after a while, I did > get used to it and now tolerate it easily. This is not the same as > that however, what you do is: What? You seem to think that we're laughing AT the holocaust. You're mistaken, yet again, at the origins of the humor. The holocaust was tragic. It shouldn't have happened. What we're laughing at is the complete absurdity behind creating a channel which looks like it supports racism. It's ridiculous to have a channel like that. It's absurd to talk about it. Thusly, it's funny. The whole reason behind the creation of #Aryanfurs was because we thought it was completely ridiculous and absurd that there were channels such as #zoo, #babyfurs, #pregfurs, #fatfurs, and any other #*furs channels that exist on FurNet. Some of us have been in the furry fandom for a really, really long time. It's just absurd to us that it has been sub-divided like that into stuff that doesn't really have much to do with the appreciation for anthropomorphic arts other than that these sub-groups happen to also have that appreciation along with these other ridiculous and absurd things. They took it to the extreme and created a parody/joke channel name out of those other, what they have considered to be, ridiculous sub-channels. If you can't find the humor in that, I'm sorry. It's just not something that you have the ability to laugh at. Don't try to say that our ability to laugh at it is somehow wrong, though. We laugh at what we find to be funny. You don't seem to laugh at much of anything, but that's because our senses of humor are different. There's nothing wrong with that. > * disrespectul to our common history, and to the millions who died for > the sake of freedoms you take for granted by making your jokes > * not contained to your channel, it spills over into other channels > and harms them too, despite your rather limited efforts to make some > gesture at containing it Here, you're taking two completely different aspects of what's going on and applying them to the same argument. You talk about the belittlement of the horrible and tragic thing that was the holocaust, then try to apply it to your rant about trolling runs. This parallel is irrelevant unless they're spamming other channels with white-supremacy drivel or swastikas or something. > Also, all the people I've seen from #safurs and similar channels have > been either trolls, or moronic individuals with an excepctionally low > standard of behaviour and decency. I have no problem with the latter > existing, but the former should NOT be allowed on furnet as they only > come here to cause annoyance and generally be a problem for us. Again, this is your opinion. You are perceiving the members of our channel community as "moronic individuals", having "exceptionally low standards", and being "trolls". This is based purely in your opinion of them, yet you state it as fact. You don't know them well enough, personally, to make a judgement like that and state it as fact. And AGAIN, you say, "they _only_ come here to cause annoyance and generally be a problem for us." We're here to hang out and chat with each other just the same way as everyone else. > Your laughter at furs certainly does not qualify in any way as a > postive reaction! That's your own opinion (AGAIN), doofus. I consider my ability to laugh at absurd aspects of the furry fandom to be perfectly healthy. > I find it strange that someone who would laugh at his fellow furs > deserves to be an admin of furnet at all. In my opinion, having the ability to separate myself from a situation, emotionally, makes me a fine candidate for being an admin. If I got all emotionally wrapped up in it, I'd be more likely to make an irrational decision. > These satirical websites are fine, so long as their humour is based on > things that are true, and it doesn't overstep the limits of decency by > being designed simply to be sick and offensive to anyone that beholds > it. They _are_ true. Have you honestly taken a look at the fandom from the perception of the "outside world" recently? It's ridiculous. BTW, whose limits of decency are we basing this on? > I find the #safurs etc website stories and such articles are more > anti-fur then simply furries laughing at what their own community has > become. Did you "find" or do you "believe"? Again... your opinion on the situation; A rather biased one again. > I don't have a problem with satire, I don't have a problem with > humour, I do have a problem when people from your group take it as > their mission to disrupt the chats of legit users of furnet and to > make usage of their channels difficult. It's only "disruptive" if you let it be disruptive. You're also implying that the residents of our channel community are not "legitimate" users of FurNet. > I also have a problem with furnet supporting a channel which seems to > me fundamentally anti-fur. Again, we're not anti-fur. A majority of the people responsible for these channels are, in fact, part of the "furry" community. They don't like to outwardly admit it, usually, but neither do I, to be perfectly honest. To admit involvement in the furry community these days is to allow yourself to be lumped into a group associated with beastiality and a myriad of other sexual deviants. We're not in it for those things, and even for those who are, they still have a realization for for completely ridiculous it is considered by the general public. > I don't mind satire, I don't mind humour, but some of the content on > websites like somethingawful.com and the portal of evil call furries > 'sick' and numerous worse things. Why should we as a community put up > with and even provide supporting channel services to a group that > thinks so little of us? 'cause it's not serious. WE DON'T HATE YOU. We might think so little of your more ridiculous activities, but we don't hate you. > Like it or not, there are many trolls associated with #safurs and > similar channels. I don't claim ALL of you are trolls, but I think > many are. Yes, and if you're an admin for a channel, and you get "trolled", by whatever definition you have for that term, you have the option to deal with them. What you consider "trolling" is more considered "friendly chat" by me. You're trying to impose your opinions of a sub-group on the workings of channels which you have no administrative involvement in, though. Let them take care of themselves. > Trolling is joining a channel and attempting to join in the > conversation of that channel in such a way so as to provoke a negative > reaction from the channel residents, in short, to join a channel with > the express purpose of making the people there unhappy and lowering > the quality of the channel. Simple solution to that? Play along and don't let it get to you. If you realize they're there just to get a reaction out of you, don't react in any way they'd expect or want you to. > Trolling is basically seeking to harm channels by altering the flow of > the conversation there towards negative ends and generally attempting to > disrupt and/or stop channel conversation. When this happens, capture logs and report them. If any actual "harm" comes to the channel as a result of it, I'll see what I can do about it. Also, if you allow yourself to feel like you've been "harmed" because someone said something to you on IRC, you're being a bit over-sensitive, aren't you? > You have the logs yourself in your scrollback buffer! I have tons and tons of logs of friendly chat in my scrollback buffer. I have logs of conversations posted from other channels. When I see that the logs contain people who are getting annoyed and wanting to remove individuals, I help them use the tools they have to ignore or remove those individuals. > Scroll back a few weeks in #safurs and you will see it... Heck, if you > were actually active in #furnet you would see people complain about it > and, should you be bothered to check #safurs at the time, you will > find people there co-ordinating the attacks....... So... The last time this happened was a few weeks ago? For a channel that's here "soley to" disrupt the flow of other channels, isn't a few weeks since any recent "disruption" activity proof of the contrary? Do you think that all of the rest of the time is spent just contemplating and planning these channel disruption runs or what? No, it's just people chatting with other people; hardly an activity to be removed from the network for. > Firstly, posting content unsuitable for a channel directly to it, in > breach of the channel's rules, constitutes grounds for being banned > from that channel. Secondly, if many people do this, all coming from > the same origin channel (#safurs) and if they all do it at the same > time and for the same reason (typically someone says the name of a > channel there and it gets trolled) then it is a trolling attack! Maybe it's just a bizarre way of trying to understand the parts of your ridiculousness and absurditys that they don't understand. > You're just as bad as the rest of the #safurs Simba.... you > deliberately seek to burn people for their curiousity. You bait them > and then punish them for responding, you, in short, diddn't have any > reason for posting those links apart from wanting to show people > something they found offensive. How dare you make accusations and assumptions toward the intentions behind my actions? I'm about as up-front and honest as I can possibly be; moreso than most people, and sometimes to a fault. My reason for posting those links was to show the types of things that we find absurd and ridiculous. Nothing more, nothing less. If you looked at those links and didn't consider them ridiculous, I fear for you. > You don't do anything. You just sit there. You're useless at dealing > with trolling attacks. The number of times people have complained to > the furnet admins about #safurs etc relative to the number of > interventions furnet staff have made on behalf of their users is a > shameful comparison indeed. Some (they know who they are) genuinely > try to solve this problem, but you are not of that category, you seem > to encourage it. There are very few people who have been vocal about anything regarding this issue in #Furnet. Again, you're speculating and forming opinions based on your over-reactive and over-emotional involvement in the situation. Considering that there are typically close to 1,000 clients connected to Furnet at any given time, the 5 or 6 people whom I've seen express any concern or wish for us to do something about it is an extraordinarily small percentage of people who like to complain about things instead of just ignoring it and handling it themselves. Everyone else has the mental capacity to take care of themselves and either end up laughing at these people back in their face or just ignoring or banning the individuals who they believe to be repetitively disruptive. What you're trying to do by implementing this pre-emptive banning thing is essentially trying to solve other people's problems for them or, more specifically, imposing your thoughts of something that may or may not be a problem onto others. If SO much of this stuff was really getting to people where they couldn't handle it on their own, we'd get a lot more of a response from the user base than we have. Instead, it's the same people, day in and day out, who just can't seem to take care of themselves and have a tendency to completely over-react. > This behaviour is immature and stupid, yes. But it's the fault of > people stupid enough to go there that they experience this. I don't > advocate closing #safurs becuase of the fact that it is full of > excepctionally immature people, I advocate removing it because the > trolls there use it as a gathering point to attack other channels. That's fine. Remove them from your own affairs. Don't try to impose your views on everyone. > I don't save logs from troll attacks because I've learnt that the > furnet admins, much as they do a good job maintaining the servers > being linked, simply do not want to intervene on any kind of 'channel > issue'. If it happens from here on in, keep the logs. If I determine the activities to be "disruptive", I'll work on helping you to correct the "problem" more. > If you don't want to help protect individual channels, because you > don't consider it your job to do so, then that's fine......but someone > will, and I hope that a group of channel ops get together and agree on > a common, shared ban policy regarding #safurs and similar channels. > This is starting to happen now, with serveral channels I know > implementing this policy. What has not happened yet (to my knowledge) > is a system whereby bans are simply shared transparently across > channels for the purposes of abuse prevention. This is the next > logical step in our efforts to keep the trolls who have nothing to do > but harass us out of our channels. That's fine. All I'm suggesting is to be leery about this whole "guilt by association" issue. If you want to come up with a committee of people who have enough time on their hands to worry about a few "disruptive" individuals, set up a system which all members have to agree on each policy (kinda like a homeowners association). You would have to find some people who are level-headed enough to analize each situation and determine if the actions are "disruptive" enough to warrant this "preemptive banning" procedure. > If you want to help us, great! If you don't tough, if the need is > there and you won't help us then we'll do it anyway, simply because > there is a need for such a system, and if the chanops want it, it will > become a reality. Fair enough. If every chanop in each channel involved in your little homeowners association agrees to be part of this program, I see no harm in it. > The success of this method is questionable. I would be in far more > favour of simply akilling the trolls again, again, again, and as many > times is as necessary to remove them from furnet. This knee-jerk, not to mention excruciatingly time-consuming task is not something that I'd advocate. An akill should be a last resort on any problem. If two people are having a disagreement on something, an akill isn't exactly the best course of action. > Never seen anyone being kicked from channels for 'flooding' by a bot? > Channels define their own limits for what 'flooding' is. This post was specifically mentioning the policies of Furnet in general because it was quoting a server MOTD. I was reiterating the definition of "flooding" based on a server point of view, not an individual channel's point of view. You missed that point entirely. >> [ in reference to channel topics of #aryanfurs2 needing to go through >> me to determine if they're "illegal" according to German law] > > Better, but the trolls are still there. OH NO! THERE'S PEOPLE HANGING OUT IN A CHANNEL! BETTER BAN THEM FROM THE NETWORK! > I don't care if's a joke or not, if your community is going into other > channels for the express purpose of pissing them off by pasting things > deliberately designed to anger and annoy them then it's trolling, and > these individuals deserve to be banned! Fine! Ban them from your channel! > Erm, I see trolls spamming channels... I see they come from #safurs, I > see the ircops doing some good work it (like you on the proxy scanner) > but mostly not coping with the problem. I propose we, the users, > implement our own solution. What more is there then this? Individual > channels would decide if they wanted such a bot or not.... the furnet > admins should have nothing to do with it, as it is a matter for > channels themselves. The "what more is there than this" is your gross over-generalization and extreme/absolute terms used to describe them. During this discussion, there has been a lot of false information and accusations that I felt needed to be dispelled. If your proposal simply consisted of, "I think that there are quite a few trolls on the network, and it is my opinion that having a centralized list of ban masks for these individuals so that they can be less successful in being disruptive in your channels too," you probably would have received a more positive reaction. Instead, you sucked at the social skills, singled out specific other channels, and made gross over-generalizations about "all" of their members. > to "make people feel unwelcome because their sense of humor differs > from that of a few other vocal minorities on the network" is EXACTLY > what the #safurs trolls are doing...... excepct they are doing it in > the channels of others! This is both not fair, and it's offensive in > both the senses of being deliberately designed to offend, and in the > sense that is is an attack on these channels. Great! If you don't like them entering your channel, you completely have the right to remove the individuals who are being disruptive. Nobody is stopping you from doing that. > Pay more attention to #safurs when you're there, and actually bother > listening to the complaints in #furnet in future? Maybe you might > actually catch the targetting happening in channel as I've done > several times... and I neither idle there nor need ircops to see it... > you certainly should be able to. I do listen to the very few complaints that come in. I AM paying attention to the channel(s) in question. When I see them directly doing something in other channels that people are expressing their concern about, I ask them to stop. They typically do. At the same time, if the people in those other channels don't like what they are doing in those channels, they can ignore/ban the individuals who are in there. At this point, though, I'm being just as repetitive in my points as you are. You want to meddle in the administrative affairs of other channels as much as you don't want "disruptive" individuals from meddling in the conversations of other channels. It's my opinion to let them fend for themselves. If they want to get together with you and implement this bot, that's their decision, and I'm not going to get in the way of it. --- Scott 'Simba' G [address redacted]@pridelands.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 23:47:01 -0500 From: Damien EvilAngel <[address redacted]@mail2me.com> Subject: This stupidity (was: re: IRC issues) To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Now let me get this straight. We've gone from giving the safurs and aryanfurs contigent much TOO much attention than they need or even deserve, to taking potshots at the furnet admin. Can we possibly add any more drama, ulterior agenda and personal vedetta into this thread than there is now? I'm sorry to sound harsh folks, but I don't see the point of this little discussion. You see, the whole idea behind the existence of seaprate channels on irc, at least as I'm aware of it, is so that people with differing ideas and differing agendas and topics and whatnot DON'T have to mingle with each other. The people on #safurs can mingle with similar, ilk, and those on any other channel, let's say #wehatesafurs, can be in their own little channel, and never the twain have to meet. Yes, furs (or furbashers as the case may be) can still rile things up by using ye old /join command on their arch-enemy's channel, but uhm, isn't that what ops are for, and isn't that why the kickban exists? If the furnet admin is unwilling to issue a netwide edict to your liking, you can still very much have your friendly channel owner enforce policies that ban people based on channel association. In fact, this has been addressed earlier in this SAME discussion... if someone is causing you trouble, you BAN them from your channel! End of story. That said, what IS the problem here? Am i missing something? Does the fact that people who you don't like are over there *waves off to the side*, somewhere, bother you that much? If so, I doubt banishing such people will ease your discomfort... just because they're not there anymore doesn't mean the "threat" no longer exists. I guess what I'm getting at here is that this listserv has succeeded in giving #safurs and similar ilk the attention they get off on so much. These are people who have such meager, unfulfilling existences offline that they must hang around here and pick on people who they claim have such meager unfulfilling existences that they must hang out here! How nice of you all to oblige them by giving them a reason to continue existing here, and using #furnet as cannonfodder. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go hang my head in disgust. -Damien -----Original Message----- From: James 'Arcturus Nova' Garrett <[address redacted]@gmx.net > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Sent: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 02:08:39 -0000 Subject: IRC issues I would like to point out to all and everyone, that if anyone wishes to use a quite fur-friendly alternative network, run by sensible admins who take care of issues, you can. [remaining shameless plug snipped] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:53:26 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=22Trolling=22?= From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?[address redacted]@mageos.com?=" To: "=?utf-8?Q?simba?=" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> Cc: "=?utf-8?Q?users?=" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> > Mostly, 'cause so far, no actual "harm" is happening. If you consider going to #france, #cute_furry_france, #foxie and #babyfurs to flood the channels continuously with nazy graphisms, racist comments, denigration modified photos, insults, stalks Furnet user's LJ accounts, copy/paste private logs, nick and ban evasion, invite all their friends to join in the insults. Anything they can imagine to hurt and have fun: Yes no harm is actually happenning. And they claim we don't have a life? ---------------------------------------------------------------- GUIDEO HAUT DEBIT : PRIX EN BAISSE ! L'Internet Haut Débit Illimité à partir de 17,90 E/mois ? Une offre de GUIDEO ! Bénéficiez de cette offre, en cliquant ici : http://www.9online.fr/offres/guideo/adsl --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: "Trolling" Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 04:06:24 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: [address redacted]@mageos.com [mailto:ogriffox@mageos.com] > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 3:53 AM > If you consider going to #france, #cute_furry_france, #foxie and > #babyfurs to flood the channels continuously with nazy graphisms, > racist comments, denigration modified photos, insults, stalks Furnet > user's LJ accounts, copy/paste private logs, nick and ban evasion, > invite all their friends to join in the insults. Anything they can > imagine to hurt and have fun: Yes no harm is actually happenning. Logs plz. And no, don't count that time I kickbanned you from #furry for being a moron, you already posted that in its entirety on your livejournal to whine about what evil overlord oppressors I and the channel ops there are. Speaking of which, any activity which occurs on livejournal or outside furnet is not applicable to this conversation. Oh, and.. "cute_furry_france"? Could you have come up with a more cloying channel name? Also, if you're going to (falsely) accuse us of spamming your channel with ASCII image art, at least spell "nazi" properly. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "verix" <[address redacted]@furryse.cx> To: "users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: "Trolling" Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 01:07:35 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: <[address redacted]@mageos.com> To: "simba" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> Cc: "users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:53 AM Subject: Re: "Trolling" >> If you consider going to #france, #cute_furry_france, #foxie and >> #babyfurs to flood the channels continuously with nazy graphisms, /ignore command. >> racist comments /ignore command. >> denigration modified photos Don't click links from strangers. >> insults, /ignore command. >> stalks Furnet user's LJ accounts, Commenting on someone's journal hardly constitutes as stalking. > copy/paste private logs, Private conversation does not always constitute as private information (for instance, where you live), and is therefore in most cases harmless. > nick and ban evasion, I'm sure you've had much mental anguish because you've had to type /kickban so many times. > invite all their friends to join in the insults. /ignore command. /ignore command. /ignore command. /ignore command. /ignore command. > Yes no harm is actually happenning. I absolutely agree with this statement. > And they claim we don't have a life? YOU ARE THE FRENCH UNDEAD --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:31:20 +1100 (EST) From: "David Formosa (? the Platypus)" <[address redacted]@zeta.org.au> Reply-To: To: Robert Wagman <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> cc: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, Robert Wagman wrote: [...] > There is, on occasion, trolling activity on FurNet by extremists who are > not members of our community, who come from places off FurNet. Where would you consider the ethical bounds of trolling. In other words where do you consider the playfull jokes to end and the extreemest trolling to begin? [...] > These trolls are then drawn to our channel community > thinking it is a hub for trolling activity, when in fact it is not. We > do not have control over what extremist furry or non-furry trolls choose > to do on FurNet, and we do not condone their activities, Since you do not condone such behavour would be willing to ban thouse found to have been trolling from your groups? Espcally if they have been using your channels as a staging post? -- Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 04:44:21 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Formosa (? the Platypus) [mailto:[address redacted]@zeta.org.au] > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:31 AM > Where would you consider the ethical bounds of trolling. In other > words where do you consider the playfull jokes to end and the > extreemest trolling to begin? Only activity which the operators and/or users of the channel are unable to block either by removing the trolls or using /ignore. > Since you do not condone such behavour would be willing to ban thouse > found to have been trolling from your groups? Espcally if they have > been using your channels as a staging post? Certainly. However as has been repeatedly and previously stated, there has been a) no concrete evidence, and b) the admins have been watching everything to ensure there has been no problems of any signifigant sort. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zack Friedrich" <[address redacted]@comcast.net> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: trolling Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:01:48 -0500 Anybody older than 4 can easily see through Robert Wagman's pathetic bullshit arguments like glass. I mean come on... "An active IRC server not retrieving data from other servers?" "It's okay to use nazi symbolism if your last name might be Jewish?" "You have banned us thousands of times, so we are obviously not bad guys anymore?" And what's this: "You guys are blowing this whole thing out of proportion; a babyfur started this argument so it's not important!" For a guy who denies racism, he sure seems to be very prejudiced against at LEAST that group, much like Kibeth over there who hates us all because a man with the name "toddlertiger" happened to stalk him this one time. Furthermore it's hard to take anything Wagman says seriously because he is still making fun of everything and everyone, even while attempting to cover it up! I think we can all agree that your defense is very poor, Wagman. But if that's not enough, everyone, #safurs and #aryanfurs and whatever is being held trial here really OUGHT to be shut down simply because all these ridiculous flame wars and ignorance and drama will come to a stop. It's a simple decision. And Simba...sometimes being "Humorous" and "funny" can be at the expense and offense of others. #safurs is an excellent example of it. Being based on a community expressing hatred against ALL furries (somethingawful), I personally don't think #safurs should ever have been trusted in the first place. And for the record, infantilists (and babyfurs) are not pedophiles. An infantilist is a person who wants to regress and be younger, and is often not even a sexual tendency. A pedophile doesn't want to be younger himself...he simply wants sex with children. That's ALL there is to it. I can't believe I have to repeat what others are saying but it doesn't seem to register with some of you. We're not the ones involved here who are hurting others. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Chiffy" <[address redacted]@pacbell.net> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: trolling Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 03:14:29 -0800 It really boils down to this: If it's an issue within your channel, use the tools available to you. This includes kickbanning, or /ignoring the offender. If they go around your ban or ignore, tell an IRCOP. Otherwise, just let them be in their channel. As for flamewars, ignorance and drama, well...you're the one(s) doing it. :) Just chill. It's IRC. > Anybody older than 4 can easily see through Robert Wagman's pathetic > bullshit arguments like glass. I mean come on... "An active IRC server not > retrieving data from other servers?" "It's okay to use nazi symbolism if > your last name might be Jewish?" "You have banned us thousands of times, so > we are obviously not bad guys anymore?" And what's this: "You guys are > blowing this whole thing out of proportion; a babyfur started this argument > so it's not important!" For a guy who denies racism, he sure seems to be > very prejudiced against at LEAST that group, much like Kibeth over there who > hates us all because a man with the name "toddlertiger" happened to stalk > him this one time. Furthermore it's hard to take anything Wagman says > seriously because he is still making fun of everything and everyone, even > while attempting to cover it up! > > I think we can all agree that your defense is very poor, Wagman. But if > that's not enough, everyone, #safurs and #aryanfurs and whatever is being > held trial here really OUGHT to be shut down simply because all these > ridiculous flame wars and ignorance and drama will come to a stop. It's a > simple decision. > > And Simba...sometimes being "Humorous" and "funny" can be at the expense and > offense of others. #safurs is an excellent example of it. Being based on a > community expressing hatred against ALL furries (somethingawful), I > personally don't think #safurs should ever have been trusted in the first > place. > > And for the record, infantilists (and babyfurs) are not pedophiles. An > infantilist is a person who wants to regress and be younger, and is often > not even a sexual tendency. A pedophile doesn't want to be younger > himself...he simply wants sex with children. That's ALL there is to it. I > can't believe I have to repeat what others are saying but it doesn't seem to > register with some of you. We're not the ones involved here who are hurting > others. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zack Friedrich" <[address redacted]@comcast.net> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: trolling Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:31:47 -0500 You're right. It's just IRC. You're not supposed to take things too seriously. The thing is, I have been pretty comfortable recently on IRC, and the only reason I let myself post to this list was because I was upset by the whole debate. It's really getting out of control here! But on IRC itself I have not witnessed too much trolling recently. It'd be nice to see the whole thing just end. :-/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chiffy" <[address redacted]@pacbell.net> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 6:14 AM Subject: Re: trolling > > It really boils down to this: > > If it's an issue within your channel, use the tools available to you. This > includes kickbanning, or /ignoring the offender. > If they go around your ban or ignore, tell an IRCOP. > Otherwise, just let them be in their channel. > > As for flamewars, ignorance and drama, well...you're the one(s) doing it. :) > Just chill. It's IRC. > > > > Anybody older than 4 can easily see through Robert Wagman's pathetic > > bullshit arguments like glass. I mean come on... "An active IRC server not > > retrieving data from other servers?" "It's okay to use nazi symbolism if > > your last name might be Jewish?" "You have banned us thousands of times, > so > > we are obviously not bad guys anymore?" And what's this: "You guys are > > blowing this whole thing out of proportion; a babyfur started this > argument > > so it's not important!" For a guy who denies racism, he sure seems to be > > very prejudiced against at LEAST that group, much like Kibeth over there > who > > hates us all because a man with the name "toddlertiger" happened to stalk > > him this one time. Furthermore it's hard to take anything Wagman says > > seriously because he is still making fun of everything and everyone, even > > while attempting to cover it up! > > > > I think we can all agree that your defense is very poor, Wagman. But if > > that's not enough, everyone, #safurs and #aryanfurs and whatever is being > > held trial here really OUGHT to be shut down simply because all these > > ridiculous flame wars and ignorance and drama will come to a stop. It's a > > simple decision. > > > > And Simba...sometimes being "Humorous" and "funny" can be at the expense > and > > offense of others. #safurs is an excellent example of it. Being based on a > > community expressing hatred against ALL furries (somethingawful), I > > personally don't think #safurs should ever have been trusted in the first > > place. > > > > And for the record, infantilists (and babyfurs) are not pedophiles. An > > infantilist is a person who wants to regress and be younger, and is often > > not even a sexual tendency. A pedophile doesn't want to be younger > > himself...he simply wants sex with children. That's ALL there is to it. I > > can't believe I have to repeat what others are saying but it doesn't seem > to > > register with some of you. We're not the ones involved here who are > hurting > > others. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Aerocoon" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Time for the joke to end Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:37:46 -0000 Call me humour impared, but I don't exactly find what's been going on lately funny. And since the administrators seem quite content to sit back and do nothing, I've written to RH-TEC GmbH who are the provider of services to panther.furnet.org. While they talk to their lawyers to see what action they can take, I'd ask anyone who has logs of any of any abuse or use of text based nazi symbols 'playful' 'joking' 'humorous' or otherwise, to foward them to me in private. And Hurga, it might be wise for you to step in now and end this 'joke'. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:21:12 +0100 From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end On Monday, Feb 02 2004 at 11:37:46 -0000, Aerocoon wrote: > And since the administrators seem quite content to sit back and do > nothing, I've written to RH-TEC GmbH who are the provider of services to > panther.furnet.org. Permanent AKILL on Aerocoon for threatening FurNet. And no, I'm not sitting back regarding the other issues, but there are some communication delays I'm not responsible for. - Hurga --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:28:48 -0600 From: "RL" <[address redacted]@starfirearts.com> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: trolling >"You guys are > blowing this whole thing out of proportion; a babyfur started this argument > so it's not important!" For a guy who denies racism, he sure seems to be > very prejudiced against at LEAST that group I don't see how anyone who just suggested racism and dislike of babyfurs are on a remotely similar level can even begin to jab at Bobby's "poor defense". -Sulaco PS: Sorry if any of my replies to the mailing list got sent privately to a couple of you. A little mixup on my part. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Aerocoon" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:34:25 -0000 No, I'm not threatening Furnet, just your German server on which you've allowed this situation to develop. And it's hardly a threat, since I've already had a response from RH-TEC. But by all means ban me from your network, if you feel reporting illegal actions to your host is considered an attack, it's your right after all. Regards -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hanno Foest" <[address redacted]@tigress.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end > On Monday, Feb 02 2004 at 11:37:46 -0000, Aerocoon wrote: > > > And since the administrators seem quite content to sit back and do > > nothing, I've written to RH-TEC GmbH who are the provider of services to > > panther.furnet.org. > > Permanent AKILL on Aerocoon for threatening FurNet. > > And no, I'm not sitting back regarding the other issues, but there are some > communication delays I'm not responsible for. > > - Hurga > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Kyle Hamilton" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Time for the joke to end Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:39:34 -0600 Oh, interesting. Someone who's trying to make it their own personal crusade to stop speech that /they/ find offensive. When they came for the union organizers, I did not speak up, because I was not in a union. When they came for the gays, I did not speak up, because I was not gay. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak up, because I was not Jewish. When they came for me, there was nobody left to stand up for me. As Bobby has (correctly) pointed out, nobody joins #aryanfurs on the German server. This means that only JOINs, PARTs, MODEs, and TOPICs are sent to the German server. (If anyone does join that channel on the German server, German law would apply -- but if they don't, no speech on that channel is being routed through Germany, and thus the speech is not affected by German law.) The net effect of your bringing the upstream provider into this is most likely going to be thus: the German server is going to lose its connection, and thus a European point-of-access for Furnet is going to be lost. You accuse others of being 'intolerant'... yet, those you accuse of intolerance have never attempted to shut down #babyfurs, #zoo, #bakedfurs, or any of the other 'controversial' discussion forums on the network. (While it's correct that speech on those topics is protected under US law, each one of those channel topics has had to defend itself against 'attackers' in the past -- each one has a group of people who would be in danger of harassment if their identities were known.) Meanwhile, you are intolerant of a topic that has much more than just 'oppression' associated with it. I know it's useless to try to reason -- but fandom, and indeed humanity, is large enough to contain macros, micros, babyfurs, potheads, herms, gender-dysphorics, scalies, furries, dragons, self-absorbed narcissistic pricks, folks with social challenges, and people who have learned to laugh at the absurdity of it all, among others. And yes, it's even large enough for the hypocrites, too. But don't destroy a service that you derive benefit from for your high-minded, unconsidered morality. Because the only thing you do is destroy that which creates a social medium for not only you, but for many others. Only a tiny subset of which are the ones that you do not wish to be around. -Winged -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 5:38 AM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Time for the joke to end Call me humour impared, but I don't exactly find what's been going on lately funny. And since the administrators seem quite content to sit back and do nothing, I've written to RH-TEC GmbH who are the provider of services to panther.furnet.org. While they talk to their lawyers to see what action they can take, I'd ask anyone who has logs of any of any abuse or use of text based nazi symbols 'playful' 'joking' 'humorous' or otherwise, to foward them to me in private. And Hurga, it might be wise for you to step in now and end this 'joke'. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Kyle Hamilton" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: "'Aerocoon'" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com>, <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Time for the joke to end Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:42:17 -0600 Trying to use a single nation's laws (that you're not even a citizen of!) to attempt to push your own agenda? Causing Furnet to lose a server in an already-underserved region of the world (aka 'a precious commodity, a precious social resource')? You're more clueless than I thought. -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 6:34 AM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end No, I'm not threatening Furnet, just your German server on which you've allowed this situation to develop. And it's hardly a threat, since I've already had a response from RH-TEC. But by all means ban me from your network, if you feel reporting illegal actions to your host is considered an attack, it's your right after all. Regards -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hanno Foest" <[address redacted]@tigress.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end > On Monday, Feb 02 2004 at 11:37:46 -0000, Aerocoon wrote: > > > And since the administrators seem quite content to sit back and do > > nothing, I've written to RH-TEC GmbH who are the provider of services to > > panther.furnet.org. > > Permanent AKILL on Aerocoon for threatening FurNet. > > And no, I'm not sitting back regarding the other issues, but there are some > communication delays I'm not responsible for. > > - Hurga > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Aerocoon" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:50:44 -0000 Don't be so melodramatic. Furnet will not lose a server, since the administrators of this network will hopefully come to their senses and consider the consequences of allowing unchecked abuse which in some parts of the world is illegal to continue on their network. At least that's my hope. If not, well, they've been warned. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle Hamilton" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: "'Aerocoon'" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com>; <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:42 PM Subject: RE: Time for the joke to end > Trying to use a single nation's laws (that you're not even a citizen of!) to > attempt to push your own agenda? Causing Furnet to lose a server in an > already-underserved region of the world (aka 'a precious commodity, a > precious social resource')? You're more clueless than I thought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 6:34 AM > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end > > No, I'm not threatening Furnet, just your German server on which you've > allowed this situation to develop. And it's hardly a threat, since I've > already had a response from RH-TEC. > > But by all means ban me from your network, if you feel reporting illegal > actions to your host is considered an attack, it's your right after all. > > Regards > > -- > Aerocoon > ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org>, <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:57:21 -0600 Nothing on channel topic or description indicate zoophilia or bestiality. I've not heard of complaints about the channel in the several years I've mananaged it. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Wagman [mailto:[address redacted]@sympatico.ca] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 1:27 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Last time I checked zoophilia and advocacy of zoophilia was illegal and violates obscenity laws in many countries and states, too. By that logic, #zoo and other zoo-related channels are in the same boat. A lot of activity which occurs on FurNet qualifies as "repugnant to any civilized human being". Can't have one and not have the other. In fact, to some degree, that is our point. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:04:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Aerocoon wrote: > Don't be so melodramatic. Furnet will not lose a server, since the > administrators of this network will hopefully come to their senses and > consider the consequences of allowing unchecked abuse which in some > parts of the world is illegal to continue on their network. > > At least that's my hope. If not, well, they've been warned. Come to our senses? You're the only one who exercised a COMPLETE lack of sense in this entire issue. At least everyone else is having a harmless debate, offering opinions, and trying to shed light on their end of the story. If Hurga ends up being contacted by the German government about this, the ONLY course of action will be to lose panther because when it comes down to it, there's nothing we really CAN do about what people post to their channels. There is ZERO control over that which is the largest reason that we don't get involved in this type of thing. No amount of admin bullying, akills, requests, pleading, or forbidding of channels is going to stop people from exercising their right to freedom of speech. It will happen. They will get around the bans. They will just form new channels when their other ones are set to be forbidden. You're basically asking us to sit here and monitor every bit of data that goes through all of the servers 24/7 and scrutinize it for things that would be considered illegal in Germany. I don't know ANYONE who has the resources to host a server that also has the time or other spare resources available to do such a thing. Congradulations, moron. You just made it more difficult for the users overseas to come to Furnet because of your malicious agenda; so far the only "harmful" act which has been executed by anyone related to this debate. One thing that I WILL be monitoring from now on is your attempts to connect to the network. You are no longer welcome here, as far as I'm concerned. --- Scott 'Simba' G [address redacted]@pridelands.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org>, "someone" <[address redacted]> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:09:33 -0600 I'm not saying my channel is better because of.. (fill in reasons) What I am saying is first I don't care so much about the channels being there as long as its contained in their channel and topics are kept reasonable. Common sense and respect for others. All I can suggest for these channels is to try to remain in the guidelines of International written laws. And of course I would like to see some of the topics that are viewable from outside the channel to be tactful, I not specifying this particular channel I speaking of ALL channels and I for one have seen some pretty nasty topics lately. When I've respectfully to channel members if they could please clean the topic up or make the channel +s they have gladly done so. If you go into a channel rant and rave make demands.. well yeah your going to more than likely have a negative reaction. Just my 2 cents :) -Z -----Original Message----- From: someone [mailto:[address redacted]] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 1:46 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: FW: #aryanfurs (Apologies to Robbo if he gets this message twice as I hit the reply button by accident) Ah yes, you have a point, but Racism and paraphilia are different things, same applies under the law; racism, Neo-Nazism, White-Power, KKK, etc. are all totally illegal because they involve at least one party involved in the activities harm/distress/complaint, paraphilia doesn't. Paraphilia is only illegal because those who don't have such deviations see it as "socially unacceptable", as quotable from many medical and physiological encyclopaedias and dictionaries. Zoophilia isn't doing anyone any harm, remember it is the love of an animal, not just the sex side of it, look it up in a (proper) dictionary if you don't believe me. Racism is totally different and completely unacceptable, I am all for the closure of #aryanfurs if it is what I think it is. However I haven't been in there, nor am considering to either, but if it is a white-supremacy channel then I want it closed and all like it shut as well. Just my side on things Erinn -----Original Message----- From: Robert Wagman [mailto:[address redacted]@sympatico.ca] Sent: 01 February 2004 19:27 To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Last time I checked zoophilia and advocacy of zoophilia was illegal and violates obscenity laws in many countries and states, too. By that logic, #zoo and other zoo-related channels are in the same boat. A lot of activity which occurs on FurNet qualifies as "repugnant to any civilized human being". Can't have one and not have the other. In fact, to some degree, that is our point. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 1:43 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: #aryanfurs Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate speech, denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized human being. If I was an administrator, I'd be looking extremely closely at this situation right now, and consider whether it is sensible to continue to host #aryanfurs. Just a thought, before panther's admin finds himself in court on criminal charges should anyone make a complaint. And once you're aware of a problem, to do nothing and rely on 'It's my users not me' is not a defence, as Yahoo and e-bay have found. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:19:44 -0600 Regardless of where a server is located, If a channel is in violation of international laws or whatever.. then its up to the administrators if they are willing to accept liability. And something like this would have to be agreed upon on a global aspect. Not per server, there are 5 servers however 1 network. -Z -----Original Message----- From: Kyle Hamilton [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:21 PM To: 'Aerocoon'; [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Then, the administrator of that server can prevent people from joining that channel on that server. Once that happens, no PRIVMSGs on that channel get sent to that server... and suddenly, problem solved. No speech against German law goes into Germany. Technological solution to a political problem. -Winged -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 12:43 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: #aryanfurs Last time I checked, one of Furnet's servers was physically located in Germany. And last time I checked, usage of Nazi symbology, hate speech, denying the holocaust, and advocating Aryan dominance etc. was a criminal offence in Germany. Not to mention repugnant to any civilized human being. If I was an administrator, I'd be looking extremely closely at this situation right now, and consider whether it is sensible to continue to host #aryanfurs. Just a thought, before panther's admin finds himself in court on criminal charges should anyone make a complaint. And once you're aware of a problem, to do nothing and rely on 'It's my users not me' is not a defence, as Yahoo and e-bay have found. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:27:52 -0600 I would imagine it would be the same as any RPing channel? Most are adults RPing children? I don't know enough about the channel or the lifestyle to really have an opinion. -Z -----Original Message----- From: verix [mailto:[address redacted]@furryse.cx] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:22 PM To: Foxcub; [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: #aryanfurs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Foxcub" <[address redacted]@babyfox.org.uk> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 12:56 PM Subject: Re: #aryanfurs > If you want to see us as "moderately pedophilic", that's up to you, if > you're so closed-minded and short-sighted that you're incapable of > seeing or accepting the truth. I'm certainly sick and tired of trying > to change your mind. I'm choosing to see you as racist bigots, so I > guess it all balances out in the bigger picture. > Please explain how acting like a child does not equal, on a walking-the-line level, a love for children. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:32:58 -0600 So is your complaint about trolls or channel content? I have made it clear to most users that trolling will result in removal from the network. As far as channel content, I do not care of they want to have a room where they can talk to each other about whatever. I would rather they have a channel than to be in the mainstream channels discussing these things. As I have stated several times. My worry is trying to keep the topics respectable or if they want an offensive topic at least make the channel +s. I don't have an opinion one way or another on The channel existing or not. -Z -----Original Message----- From: Ashen [mailto:[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:30 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: RE: #aryanfurs > Sorry, my friend. While most of my older relatives are dead, I do > remember a couple of them having numbers tattooed into their skin. I > don't claim to understand you, so don't patronize me by attempting to > comprehend me. You still fail to get it. It's a joke. It is choosing to > make light of something drastic and horrific which occurred 60 years > ago, yes. Is it tasteless? Of course it is. You, do not get the joke. We > do. Too bad for you, ignore it since you don't like it, and get on with > your life. We're not causing you or anyone else any harm. Um, your trolls have caused repeated problems for many large channels on this network. You're dishonouring and laughing at the millions of good people who gave up their lives to give you the freedom to make your little "jokes"... freedom that you now take for granted.... which you only have becuase of these people you are disrespecting. You're a sick and twisted individual if you find this shit funny, you really are. Babyfurs, most Zoos, and the countless other subcommunities of furrydom have one thing in common... we don't let who we are impact on other people without their consent. Babyfur has nothing to do with real animals OR real kids, and most zoos are content to buy animal toys from sites like zetacreations and not actually interfere with real animals. You and your kind, on the other hand, seem to go out of your way to harass us and make our legitimate chats in our own private channels difficult, and to harass our users who were never even aware of your own existance until they got trolled. > I'll use more blunt language to get my point across: "What the hell are > you talking about". > > And I'm not the one who created the channel. You might actually want to > use Chanserv to find that out before making an arbitrary statement. You're an op there, and you're defending it. I'm all for free speech, however with the right to speak freely comes the responsibility to use your free speech constructively and not to cause dissent, disunity and hatred.... and above all, not to use it to deliberately push the limits of how just how much you can get on peoples' tits before you get a angry reaction. > > To make it short: WHAT A SICK FUCK ARE YOU DIRTY LITTLE BASTARD? > > Um.. okay. I can be sick for making jokes about nazis and the holocaust, > and you can be sick for condoning zoophilia. Which is worse by society's > standards at large? LET'S SPIN THE WHEEL OF DRAMA TO FIND OUT, PAT! The issue here is not zoos or anything else... the issue here is that your channel and others like it are gathering grounds for the trolls that are making this network a less nice place. We don't interfere with your acts in your own channels, yet you steadfastly refuse to grant us the same courtesy, rights or respect. We don't harm others by what we do, in fact we go out of our way to be mature and sensible about it, yet you seem to represent the sick mind of 14 year olds who don't really know what they're doing at all, and find such things funny becuase you are simply ignorant of the horrid reality of them. You're doing something in hugely bad taste - that's fine... people have different tastes about what is good and what is bad, and we have to tolerate diversity....... much as we think you are a bunch of sick little kids. What I have a problem with is that you do this TO GET ATTENTION. You create channels like #aryanfurs and #eatallfurries which are DESIGNED to harass people and to generally piss them off. Your entire focus is on getting on people's tits! You serve no other purpose here then to annoy people! You're not here to have your own community, you're here to rip it out of the community we at furnet have worked hard to build! You choose to do this in the most low, sick ways imaginable... you exist to offend and annoy people, and because of that, I can see why no reason why people such as you should be allowed on furnet. -A ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: #aryanfurs Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:37:03 -0600 Simply don't join the channel, I have seen you join at least one of these channels. If it offends you simply do not join. I want to remind people that if there is a trolling problem form any user let me know and please include the Log and full IP of the user that was trolling. -Z -----Original Message----- From: Ashen [mailto:[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:35 PM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: RE: #aryanfurs > You have never joined the IRC channels in question, therefore you have > no argument. You are assuming, based merely upon the name of the > channel, what its content is. You have no actual knowledge of what we > may or may not be doing in our channel, so your entire argument is > completely invalid. Mind you there'd be no sense in you joining now, as > you'd be banned on sight, but unfortunately that's just the way it is. > On the fact babyfurs etc offend you as much as racism offends us.... we stand for love and accepctance, you stand for hatred, killing, and support for millions of innocent people being tortured and killed. Oh yes, and the fact that different things offend both of us doesn't matter. You harm people, you harm this network by your presence and your activities, we harm no-one and nothing. Regarding your point about having never been in your channels so we can't comment, I *HAVE* been in your channels many times (usually during troll attacks, in order to find out where they are targetting and warn the ops there before you start attacking them, and to set pre-emptive bans). Because I have seen your channels many times with my own eyes, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I have seen them they have been occupied by small minded, moronic kids that have nothing better to do then attempt to spoil the efforts of many furnet residents to simply talk to their friends, I am forced to conclude that you, and your channel, don't stand for anything positive at all, you are simply a gathering place for stupidity, hatred, bigotry and moronic trolling behaviour. -A ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 10:40:01 -0500 From: Damien Evilangel <[address redacted]@mail2me.com> Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Time for the joke to end To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Damien Evilangel wrote: > On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Aerocoon wrote: > > Don't be so melodramatic. Furnet will not lose a server, since the > administrators of this network will hopefully come to their senses and > consider the consequences of allowing unchecked abuse which in some > parts of the world is illegal to continue on their network. I would have to disagree. Free speech isn't quite the protected right in other parts that is enjoyed in the US (and I even question just how serious the current US government is about protecting said right). I'm quite sure that you are VERY well aware that the German government is going to have a solid knee-jerk reaction to this, and will be more than happy to have the server removed and ask questions later. If not the German government, then the server's ISP will probably not want to expose themselves to the risk any further. Like a true reactionary who couldn't get what he wants through more diplomatic means, you've managed to carve out a section of furnet to get your way. I see how it is now: if you can't mold something to your liking, then no one else can enjoy it either. Nice goin' man. -Damien --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: trolling Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:02:20 -0500 I didn't read very much of what you said but you seem very angry and filled with repressed rage. You need to let your inner babyfur out. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Zack Friedrich [mailto:[address redacted]@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 6:02 AM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: trolling Anybody older than 4 can easily see through Robert Wagman's pathetic bullshit arguments like glass. I mean come on... "An active IRC server not retrieving data from other servers?" "It's okay to use nazi symbolism if your last name might be Jewish?" "You have banned us thousands of times, so we are obviously not bad guys anymore?" And what's this: "You guys are blowing blah blah blah blah blah bla bla blah bla blah bla blahblah blah bla blahbla blah blah bla --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Time for the joke to end Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:10:15 -0600 Why the hell would you contact the provider?? That is not too bright, have you even bothered to contact the owner of the server before you contact the provider?? Why involve RL with IRC? -Z -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 5:38 AM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Time for the joke to end Call me humour impared, but I don't exactly find what's been going on lately funny. And since the administrators seem quite content to sit back and do nothing, I've written to RH-TEC GmbH who are the provider of services to panther.furnet.org. While they talk to their lawyers to see what action they can take, I'd ask anyone who has logs of any of any abuse or use of text based nazi symbols 'playful' 'joking' 'humorous' or otherwise, to foward them to me in private. And Hurga, it might be wise for you to step in now and end this 'joke'. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:12:21 +0100 (CET) From: Sven Tegethoff <[address redacted]@tigress.com> To: Zeta Wolf <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> cc: Users <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org>, <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> Subject: Please do NOT attack the infrastructure for political means On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Zeta Wolf wrote: > Nothing on channel topic or description indicate zoophilia or bestiality. > I've not heard of complaints about the channel in the several years I've > mananaged it. Fact is: You cannot control the content of an open interactive medium like IRC, you can just refuse to approve. The only way to actually formally fulfill laws forbidding propagation of certain content is to switch to a closed chat system, which does not allow user creation of new channels, requires registration, authentication and age verification, and where all conversations are screened by moderators 24/7. These kinds of laws are pretty stupid, written by people who have little knowledge about the internet, who do not see the revolutionary benefits of open communication. The reason why we can still run IRC servers and get away with it is, that for a law to be enforcable, it must be possible for everyone to actually abide to it with reasonable effort. It's impossible to monitor all IRC activities with reasonable effort, so, theoretically, no law may obligue us to do so. At least here in germany. However, you do NOT want to have to argue about that with the police who've just raided your home as part of the general the-internet-is-evil-witch-hunt because some over-eager guy reported the admins condoning bestiality, nazi material, pedophilia or you-name-it, even though they never did, but merely run the network it happened on ... if something happened at all beyond some superficial political incorrectness. It might be a convenient way to cheaply earn yourself the proverbial 15 minutes of fame everyone's entitled to at least once in his life, but it does NOT stop the activities you're opposed to (pretty much enough chances to talk about the deviance of your choice on every other server or non-registered channels), it damages the community by endangering the infrastructure, and it is not unlikely to get people in trouble who may be unresponsive, but definately not ill-meaning, and most definately not criminal. There are very good reasons why actions against the people in question are delayed. Mostly because the admins MUST reach consent about the actions to take, and communications are really tricky due to people's day jobs and vastly different time zones. Most of the communication has to go through e-mail, we can't just make an international conference call. It's a delicate matter, and all I can do is to ask everyone to be patient, and not escalate the whole thing beyond all reason. yours, Cheetah --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: To: Aerocoon Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:17:14 -0500 I'd just like to state that I think you're by far the biggest douche I've encountered in my years on FurNet. As much as I disagree with many points and things brought up on this list, and as much as I disagree with some of the content which is hosted on FurNet, I don't make wild lashes out at it in a poorly veiled attempt to better my own IRC experience. Thank you for potentially ruining the IRC experience of a great many FurNet users simply because you don't happen to like something a small number of users happen to do. Regards, - Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 7:51 AM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end Don't be so melodramatic. Furnet will not lose a server, since the administrators of this network will hopefully come to their senses and consider the consequences of allowing unchecked abuse which in some parts of the world is illegal to continue on their network. At least that's my hope. If not, well, they've been warned. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Time for the joke to end Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:20:49 -0600 It is one thing to have a debate online, but to involve real life with that. When you've been a guest on this network for how long? Sheesh.. Thank you for dictating what is acceptable on someone else's machine. I still think you should have contacted Hurga directly before doing what you did. On a personal note, I've lost all respect for you. Would you like to contact my ISP too? Your welcome to I'll provide contact information for you if you'd like. -Z -----Original Message----- From: Aerocoon [mailto:[address redacted]@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 6:51 AM To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: Time for the joke to end Don't be so melodramatic. Furnet will not lose a server, since the administrators of this network will hopefully come to their senses and consider the consequences of allowing unchecked abuse which in some parts of the world is illegal to continue on their network. At least that's my hope. If not, well, they've been warned. -- Aerocoon ICQ #84663206 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:46:58 -0500 To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: Ripner <[address redacted]@ripner.com> Subject: RE: Time for the joke to end Aerocoon, Bobby, Admins etc, please shut up this list is for discussion of actual changes to FurNet not for Flame Wars. The reason I'm on this list is to see when actual operations change like changes to bot policies or the framework of how the server runs. Why are you guys bitching about this on the list? Shouldn't you of taken it to private e-mail between you and the admins already? Quit being an ass and flooding all of our mailboxes with this crap. Bobby you defiantly know better than to just fuel a flame war like this. I doubt even 5%of this mailing list cares about these flames, and would really wish you'd keep your stupid furry politics to yourselves. Thanks bye. Ripner the Cabbit [address redacted]@ripner.com http://www.ripner.com AIM: Ripner ICQ: 2044189 Y!: Ripner MSN: ripnercabbit@hotmail.com FurryMuck: Ripner Tapestries: Ripner and Renpir --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:51:06 -0500 To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: Ripner <[address redacted]@ripner.com> Subject: RE: Time for the joke to end Also List Admins why have you allowed this flame war to continue? Can't you at least put those continuing it on a blocked status from the mailing list for a bit of time so the e-mail box flooding will stop? At 11:46 AM 2/2/2004, you wrote: >Aerocoon, Bobby, Admins etc, please shut up this list is for discussion of >actual changes to FurNet not for Flame Wars. The reason I'm on this list >is to see when actual operations change like changes to bot policies or >the framework of how the server runs. Why are you guys bitching about this >on the list? Shouldn't you of taken it to private e-mail between you and >the admins already? Quit being an ass and flooding all of our mailboxes >with this crap. > >Bobby you defiantly know better than to just fuel a flame war like >this. I doubt even 5%of this mailing list cares about these flames, and >would really wish you'd keep your stupid furry politics to yourselves. > >Thanks bye. > >Ripner the Cabbit >[address redacted]@ripner.com >http://www.ripner.com > >AIM: Ripner ICQ: 2044189 Y!: Ripner MSN: ripnercabbit@hotmail.com >FurryMuck: Ripner Tapestries: Ripner and Renpir > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org >To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org >To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org >For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Ripner the Cabbit [address redacted]@ripner.com http://www.ripner.com AIM: Ripner ICQ: 2044189 Y!: Ripner MSN: ripnercabbit@hotmail.com FurryMuck: Ripner Tapestries: Ripner and Renpir --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:09:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: RE: Time for the joke to end On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Ripner wrote: > Aerocoon, Bobby, Admins etc, please shut up this list is for > discussion of actual changes to FurNet not for Flame Wars. The reason > I'm on this list is to see when actual operations change like changes > to bot policies or the framework of how the server runs. Why are you > guys bitching about this on the list? Shouldn't you of taken it to > private e-mail between you and the admins already? Quit being an ass > and flooding all of our mailboxes with this crap. No, this list is for discussions relating to Furnet. At no time did the discussion deviate from that general topic. If you're here just to hear about changes and announcements, you can remove yourself and add yourself to the announce@irc.furnet.org list. --- Scott 'Simba' G [address redacted]@pridelands.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: Michael Nottebrock <[address redacted]@gmx.net> Organization: FreeBSD To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Der =?iso-8859-1?q?gr=F6=DFte_Lump_im_ganzen_Land_ist_immer_noch_der?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Denunziant!?= Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:48:59 +0100 Cc: "Aerocoon" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> --Boundary-02=_eupHAv+gpr8+i1+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline n.t =2D-=20 ,_, | Michael Nottebrock | lofi@freebsd.org (/^ ^\) | FreeBSD - The Power to Serve | http://www.freebsd.org \u/ | K Desktop Environment on FreeBSD | http://freebsd.kde.org --Boundary-02=_eupHAv+gpr8+i1+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBAHpueXhc68WspdLARAr9wAJ4wVDszbuUZYw4WotgYPxUxzwM+WACgnWBV jUEYMMffoe3Ocaqbl4JPars= =EhiH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Boundary-02=_eupHAv+gpr8+i1+-- Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:16:42 +0000 From: LeoNerd <[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk> To: FurNet users <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Netsplits OK guys... Now we've had enough arguing about random channels that most of us have never seen before and have no interest in anyway, do you suppose the admin-type could devote some of their time to the much-more relavent and pressing matter of all the netsplits and mass pingouts we keep getting? I've never seen an IRC network that splits so much as FurNet... I know that if they were to meet in the wild, a panther would likely pick quite a fight with a tiger, but surely as IRC servers, panther and tiger could learn to get along and resolve their differences...? -- LeoNerd [address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk ICQ# 4135350 FurryCode v1.3: FFL2 A C D- H++ M- P+ R+ T+++ W Z Sm++ RLCT* a20 cl++++ d e+ f- h+ i++ j p-- sm+ Decode this or get your own FurryCode at: http://www.vulpine.pp.se/cgi-bin/furcode --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "BlakDrgn Adanthios" <[address redacted]@cfl.rr.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Netsplits Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:24:15 -0500 I wanna see em make lil baby servers damnit =D -BlakDrgn *mind in the gutter* > -----Original Message----- > From: LeoNerd [mailto:[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk] > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:17 PM > To: FurNet users > Subject: Netsplits > > OK guys... > > Now we've had enough arguing about random channels that most of us have > never seen before and have no interest in anyway, do you suppose the > admin-type could devote some of their time to the much-more relavent and > pressing matter of all the netsplits and mass pingouts we keep getting? > I've never seen an IRC network that splits so much as FurNet... I know > that if they were to meet in the wild, a panther would likely pick quite > a fight with a tiger, but surely as IRC servers, panther and tiger could > learn to get along and resolve their differences...? > > -- > LeoNerd > > [address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk > ICQ# 4135350 > > FurryCode v1.3: > FFL2 A C D- H++ M- P+ R+ T+++ W Z Sm++ RLCT* a20 cl++++ d e+ f- h+ i++ j > p-- sm+ > Decode this or get your own FurryCode at: > http://www.vulpine.pp.se/cgi-bin/furcode > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:26:17 -0600 From: Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: Netsplits On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:16:42 +0000 LeoNerd <[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk> wrote: > I've never seen an IRC network that splits so much as FurNet... Heh... you're new to the internet, aren't you. :) --Teh -- My mailbox is NOT an advertisement medium. Tehrasha Darkon My address is NOT for sale, lease or rent. [address redacted]@netins.net Send me spam, lose your account. Get it? TINLC-1372 http://tehrasha.mamehost.com/bastard B.A.S.T.A.R.D --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Kyle Hamilton" <[address redacted]@hotmail.com> To: "'LeoNerd'" <[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk>, "'FurNet users'" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Netsplits Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:26:21 -0600 You never name anything without expecting it to act like its namesake. :) Maybe we need one named 'lamb', to try to get the Biblical reference? (j/k!) -Winged -----Original Message----- From: LeoNerd [mailto:[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 1:17 PM To: FurNet users Subject: Netsplits OK guys... Now we've had enough arguing about random channels that most of us have never seen before and have no interest in anyway, do you suppose the admin-type could devote some of their time to the much-more relavent and pressing matter of all the netsplits and mass pingouts we keep getting? I've never seen an IRC network that splits so much as FurNet... I know that if they were to meet in the wild, a panther would likely pick quite a fight with a tiger, but surely as IRC servers, panther and tiger could learn to get along and resolve their differences...? -- LeoNerd [address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk ICQ# 4135350 FurryCode v1.3: FFL2 A C D- H++ M- P+ R+ T+++ W Z Sm++ RLCT* a20 cl++++ d e+ f- h+ i++ j p-- sm+ Decode this or get your own FurryCode at: http://www.vulpine.pp.se/cgi-bin/furcode --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:31:07 +0000 From: LeoNerd <[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk> To: Tehrasha Darkon <[address redacted]@netins.net>, FurNet users <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: Netsplits On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 01:26:17PM -0600, Tehrasha Darkon wrote: > LeoNerd <[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk> wrote: > > I've never seen an IRC network that splits so much as FurNet... > Heh... you're new to the internet, aren't you. :) No.... I simply said I hadn't seen one... Not that they don't exist.. :) -- LeoNerd [address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk ICQ# 4135350 FurryCode v1.3: FFL2 A C D- H++ M- P+ R+ T+++ W Z Sm++ RLCT* a20 cl++++ d e+ f- h+ i++ j p-- sm+ Decode this or get your own FurryCode at: http://www.vulpine.pp.se/cgi-bin/furcode --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:39:50 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ashen?= <[address redacted]@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: recent problems, and a move to resolve them To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org I've decided to quit this discussion, and encourage others to do the same, becuase: 1) The Proxy killer point I realise that Simba, etc, who are working on an improved proxy killer are probably the only people who can prevent trolls ban evading via the use of proxies. Thus, I'd prefer them to be working on such a proxy monitor then wasting time responding to comments on this list. Put simply they should be working on that rather then here, as people such as Simba and I will probably never agree on some things, and so it's quite pointless to talk about them. 2) Negative results I realise that little will probably come of this entire debate, apart from people on several sides getting annoyed and overly worked up. This has already been demonstrated by the PAKill set on Aerocoon. I did not intend such negative consequences, and think it's best to cease this discussion now, and allow things to cool down and to prevent anything else going bad. 3) Lack of recent impact I'm really not that bothered by the trolls, I've enough patience that I can simply massban them and be done with it, and keep on banning them if ever they join any channel I'm an op in again. It doesn't really take a lot of energy - most of the severe troll attacks have occured in the past now, and I'm willing to let them go. 4) My questions for the admins have been satisfied My original point was to stimulate some discussion on the trolls, and hopefully persuade the furnet admins like Simba who I've seen sit idle in #safurs while it was being used to co-ordinate trolling attacks to do more. Now, however, I realise they are faced with huge ammounts of open proxy etc abuse and coding the proxy killer is just about the only thing they can do to stop trolls using them to evade any bans set, making the bans pointless. So I realise they were, in a way, dealing with it, although not in a a visible way, nor in a way that resulted in anything being done in the short term. They were working on a longer term solution, which I guess is enough for me that they were doing it for me to rest my complaint about their idleness. Although in some aspects the furnet admins really aren't very good, they do keep the servers linked and they are trying to resolve the trolling problem. (I've noticed a lot less trolling around now then we used to get... it used to get so bad large channels had to be +m'ed for substantial periods of time). It's not that bad anymore, so it must be the case that at least some of what they're doing is helping a little (or the trolls just got bored and left). The problem is not as severe now as it used to be, and my main cause of concern, the worry that furnet's admins seemed pretty useless at dealing with problems has been shown to be partly based on false information. For example, the one-way proxies that Simba described are unlike anything I've had to deal with personally (though I have had hundreds of floodbots attack my own server, not ones using this specific kind of proxy before). I still believe that the furnet admins could punish the trolls more then they do, however since the trolling attacks have gown down lately, Simba is working on the proxy checker, and I've noticed other devices (like the mistaken proxy checker that was too harsh and was pulled after a short time) working towards solving this problem, I'm not as angry about it as I used to be. I don't feel the need to suggest such a cross-channel bot to deal with the trolling on furnet at the present time. If the trolls start coming back and we get large scale attacks again, then I might change my mind, but for the moment, things seem under control. I still don't like or agree with Simba or ZetaWolf on many points, but I can tolerate their methods so long as they have the goals (of removing the trolls from furnet) are good, and I can see they are actually working towards them. I can now see how they're doing it, and since it seems to be working for the moment, I won't complain about differences in method. In short, let this discussion die, it's been harmful enough already. I was quite embarassed at the points made by some of the people against #safurs. Let it exist so long as it only effects its own members, and as soon as they step outside of that simply ban them from your channels. If they continue to evade bans/ignores etc then I'd ask for a akill for them (though I still don't hold out any hope that any requests made to most of the admins here would be listened to). The time they're that they become that annoying has not yet been reached, however, so we shouldn't complain about it. In summary: * So long as Simba works on the proxy killer and is actually doing something worthwhile to combat the trolling problem I'll not complain about him, as I think he should be working on that more then he should be wasting his time on this list. * I recognise that the furnet admins do things that seem inane and stupid to us at times, and a few of these things they do ARE inane and stupid, however most of the time they have good reasons for doing what they do, and I'm going to be less critical of them in future, I think. In short we should be nicer to the admins, and cut them some slack more of the time. * With regard to the #safurs trolls, they're bad, and should be banned on sight still. However, they are fewer of them now (possibly as a result of the furnet admins' measures) and so this problem is largely going away. * With regard to the rest of the #safurs' and similar channels' residents, I still think they have a very, very sick and immature sense of humour, but it's their channel, they can do what they like within it, in the same way as I don't have a right to complain about what others do in their own homes, I shan't complain about them unless they bring it to my doorstep. * Lastly I'd encourage everyone on the list to take a step back for a few days before you make your next post, as this gives you time to cool down from a hot issue which has been invaluable to me in learning from my mistakes, and may help others realise that things they have said in anger were not actually as well founded as they would like to have thought. I'm not going to start liking certain individuals any more as a result of this, but in the case of people such as Simba, bobby and the trolls, I'm going to leave them alone for the simple reason that we'll both be more productive and get more done if we work on our repsective projects then if we duel things out on this list. I don't expect as cool a response from many people as I have just written above, I expect to get flamed, possibly for awhile to come, and this does not bother me. I guess my conscience felt bad for being too forceful and combative with people that probably did not deserve it. In future, I'm going to stick by the age old suggestion of waiting till you have had a few days to reflect after an event before commenting on it, for the purposes of avoiding the temptation to have an overly emmotional or knee-jerk reaction. -Ashen ===== ---- Please note: if you are emaling me about anything to do with shell accounts, that you should put '[shells]' in the subject of your email, so I notice it sooner :) (Everyone else can ignore this) ---- Ashen - http://www.moonlightglade.net ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:03:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> To: FurNet users <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: Re: Netsplits On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, LeoNerd wrote: > Now we've had enough arguing about random channels that most of us > have never seen before and have no interest in anyway, do you suppose > the admin-type could devote some of their time to the much-more > relavent and pressing matter of all the netsplits and mass pingouts we > keep getting? I've never seen an IRC network that splits so much as > FurNet... I know that if they were to meet in the wild, a panther > would likely pick quite a fight with a tiger, but surely as IRC > servers, panther and tiger could learn to get along and resolve their > differences...? As far as I can tell, all of the servers are connected to each other and everything is fine. If there is a netsplit, it typically only lasts for at most a few minutes. I've been using various IRC networks since 1993, and split/networking-wise FurNet has one of the best track records that I've seen. There's _always_ going to be an interruption, here and there, in the links on any network involving more than one server. Now... If you'd like to set up a fund, and donate the cash which would provide for multiple, redundant of the following: dedicated links, power supplies, UPSs, hard drives, hot-fail-over spare machines and network switches - all to provide completely uninterupted access to a _free_ service, be my guest. As it is, the occasional netsplit is going to happen because not all of our servers have those kinds of resources. Speaking for my own server (lion), it's a single machine and has RAID, a single power supply, a UPS, and is at a facility with redundant Internet connectivity (both by separate upstream providers and separate fiber entries per provider) and a ginormous power generator. There was a bout of ping timeouts for people connected to lion at about 2:00pm today which was caused by one of the uplinks going down and BGP doing its fail-over to the another link. It lasted for about 30 to 45 seconds and I'm on the phone with Sprintlink to find out what's up with their connection to us. You may have noticed that lion dropped off of the face of the earth for several hours sometime around 5:30pm EST (GMT -05:00) sometime around January 21st. That was a physical server move resulting from an outage which wasn't going to be rectified. We had some 20 server machines which needed to instantly move that night, including the one hosting lion.furnet.org. There was an order for disconnect which had been put on hold at Sprint because the replacement circuit which was on order hadn't been installed yet. Sprint didn't bother to tell Bellsouth about the hold on the order, and Bellsouth tore down the provisioning on that connection. When we asked what happened, they basically told us that it's down and won't be coming back online. Yay, fun stuff! Time to jump the gun on our server move! GO GO GO! That was a long night. :p As it is, I'll be doing a revamp on my server in a few months out of my own pocket which includes some of the redundancy that I've mentioned. I'll be moving the machine into a rackmount server case with hot-swap drive array space and dual, hot-swap power supplies. It's going to cost me close to $2,000.00. I really do love you guys. :) <3 But yeah... If you want to contribute to seeing those outages become less frequent, organize a charity fund for donations to our networking costs, or just let us know if you want to donate personally. We'll gladly upgrade our redundancy in a more timely fashion if the users are helping to afford those upgrades. Currently, though, there is no such fund, and they'll have to wait until we can budget for such things out of our own pockets. --- Scott 'Simba' G [address redacted]@pridelands.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:04:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Moderation From: "Aetobatus" <[address redacted]@chameleon.net> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org This mailing list is now moderated for posting. Myself, and the rest of the admins are sick and tired of this argument. We'll let constructive messages through, but name calling and repeating the same argument ad nauseum are done with. We'll try to get a better, unified, statement out later this week or this weekend. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:42:01 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Smyton <[address redacted]@mail.clarion-schools.com> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: A couple calm thoughts on all of this. Hello everyone, I just wanted to add a couple thoughts on this and say my peace in a civil and direct manner. I feel badly that things came to a head as they did, as I am good friends with Aerocoon, and one of the ops on this list to some degree as well, and it just sits a bit sadly with me to see them as upset with each other as they are. To keep this short and to the point, I want to add the simple thought that in the email regarding trolling, with the following header: >From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> >To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org >Subject: "Trolling" >Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:41:36 -0500 (EST) (The post is deleted for length) If you read through this letter, a couple points were made clear. #arianfurs is not a threat or problem in the eyes of a FurNet admin, and it would stay online. If I am incorrect in this assumption from the readion, I apologize to the parties involved, but it seemed quite clear to me to be the statement. Now, I work for a public institution. Any use of bigotry and hatred within these institutions is strictly forbidden. This being said, FurNet, being an international network is by some standards a public institution as well, and as Zeta has pointed out, falls within the governing guidelines as such. Now, I am sorry, and it is not my place I understand, to be making this judgment, but I submit it merely for thought. #arianfurs goes against some international law I admittedly do not fully understand. Somebody who understands this law and has complained about the channel reads that nothing will be done about it. They escalate the issue. They receive immediate autokicking. I'm sorry... but I miss the logic in this honestly. If I DON'T report hatecrime language within the institution I work for, I can be fired. If I were to report it and have it be ignored, I run the risk of lawsuit from the individuals that it would be directed at. So in short, I am truly sorry in my own way for what happened. But in the grand scheme of things, it is better to have that kind of bigotry gone from another place within the world, if only to insure that FurNet or any variant there of is not pulled offline in full. Thank you, Jim Smyton --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "BlakDrgn Adanthios" <[address redacted]@cfl.rr.com> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Netsplits Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:53:12 -0500 Scott, if you all setup some sort of pay pal account or such, I'd probably kick in a 10 to 20 spot every now and then. (Depending on my own financial situation.) I am aware as a whole, the furry fandom isn't "loaded". But in my eyes, if you use it, pay for it, whether it be a monthly fee or a donation. I do believe this topic has arisen before, but was mostly shrugged off. Or the "well now I pay for it so I have a say in what happens to it." Crap came up. If this sort of system was to be put in place, you all would need to make it very clear that any monies donated would be just that, donated, for you all to do with as you please as long as it went towards the irc network, And not for your Ferraris and Bentleys. =D And that's my two cents worth. -BlakDrgn > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott 'Simba' G [mailto:[address redacted]@pridelands.org] > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:03 PM > To: FurNet users > Subject: Re: Netsplits > > But yeah... If you want to contribute to seeing those outages become > less frequent, organize a charity fund for donations to our networking > costs, or just let us know if you want to donate personally. We'll gladly > upgrade our redundancy in a more timely fashion if the users are helping > to afford those upgrades. Currently, though, there is no such fund, and > they'll have to wait until we can budget for such things out of our own > pockets. > > --- > > Scott 'Simba' G > [address redacted]@pridelands.org > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org From: "Zeta Wolf" <[address redacted]@mchsi.com> To: "Users" <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Netsplits Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:51:35 -0600 Recently there has been upgrading and changing out of some of the servers, I'm sure things will settle down soon. -----Original Message----- From: LeoNerd [mailto:[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 1:17 PM To: FurNet users Subject: Netsplits OK guys... Now we've had enough arguing about random channels that most of us have never seen before and have no interest in anyway, do you suppose the admin-type could devote some of their time to the much-more relavent and pressing matter of all the netsplits and mass pingouts we keep getting? I've never seen an IRC network that splits so much as FurNet... I know that if they were to meet in the wild, a panther would likely pick quite a fight with a tiger, but surely as IRC servers, panther and tiger could learn to get along and resolve their differences...? -- LeoNerd [address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk ICQ# 4135350 FurryCode v1.3: FFL2 A C D- H++ M- P+ R+ T+++ W Z Sm++ RLCT* a20 cl++++ d e+ f- h+ i++ j p-- sm+ Decode this or get your own FurryCode at: http://www.vulpine.pp.se/cgi-bin/furcode --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 21:34:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org cc: [address redacted]@mail.clarion-schools.com Subject: Re: A couple calm thoughts on all of this. On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Jim Smyton wrote: > If you read through this letter, a couple points were made clear. > #arianfurs is not a threat or problem in the eyes of a FurNet admin, > and it would stay online. If I am incorrect in this assumption from > the readion, I apologize to the parties involved, but it seemed quite > clear to me to be the statement. During the entire length of this debate, I was speaking as myself, for myself. I happen to be part of the Furnet Administrative staff, but I am not speaking on behalf of the collective thoughts of the administrators. The administrators are having their own discussion on this matter and have not come to a collective agreement on what should be done. > Now, I work for a public institution. Any use of bigotry and hatred within > these institutions is strictly forbidden. This being said, FurNet, being > an international network is by some standards a public institution as > well, and as Zeta has pointed out, falls within the governing guidelines > as such. I don't disagree that public institutions who are witnessing actual bigotry and actual hatred within their institution and have the ability to effectively stop it from happening exercise their civic duty to do so. The disagreement and debate only stems from the perception of "actual bigotry/racism/hate" or more specifically "actual harmful hate crime". It's the difference between "actual illegal activities" and satire using references to illegal activities to poke fun at absurdities. The claim seems to be that the people responsible for the creation of #aryanfurs created it to incite actual bigotry, hate, or harmful criminal acts. The defense is that the name of the channel and its topics are merely there to be ridiculous, absurd, and laughed at and if you can't laugh at them, just ignore them and don't participate in them but don't try to censor them. Some may consider the channel name and its topics or discussion content offensive and in poor taste, the others just realize how completely ridiculous it is and laugh at it. Those are the claims and defenses. The debate is whether or not Furnet administration should, or even has the resources to, remove this content and individuals providing it based on the claim that it is illegal and harmful. The defendants counter-claim that it's not harmful since nobody is being directly assaulted and no actual, harmful criminal acts are taking place, being planned, or rallying anyone to actually hate anyone else. All of this is a sub-debate which stemmed from a completely different perceived problem of spamming and trolling, citing the members of the, for lack of a better term, "parody" channels as being the culprits responsible for that activity. The claim also included statements accusing the administration of Furnet of doing nothing to help the users combat this type of malicious activity. The defense is that not all of the members of the "parody channels" are contributing in this activity and that some of the ones who had been witnessed by administrative staff had been administratively dealt with. The administrative actions have included: polite asking, warning, akilling (banning from the network) ones who evade channel bans and "ignores" to continue harassment, changing ownership of channels, changing services settings for channels and forbidding of channels. > Now, I am sorry, and it is not my place I understand, to be making > this judgment, but I submit it merely for thought. #arianfurs goes > against some international law I admittedly do not fully understand. > Somebody who understands this law and has complained about the channel > reads that nothing will be done about it. They escalate the issue. > They receive immediate autokicking. I'm sorry... but I miss the logic > in this honestly. Here's some of the logic: 1. I can assure you that Aerocoon is not a lawyer and not completely versed in international laws and laws governing gray areas including Live Internet Chat forums. His actions were most likely purely to push his own views and agenda and to go over the heads of the administrative staff. 2. What he did was essentially the start of barratry (look it up). He wanted to push his personal view by threatening and involving legal action. 3. Our purpose as administrators, above all else, is to keep the servers running, connected to each other, and available for users to connect to them. In fact, that's really where our responsibility ends and our courtesys begin, in my opinion. The ultimate result of his action, if persued by his ISP or the German government will probably be a shutdown of the panther server. This threatens the integrity of Furnet in general, which is what we're here to protect. > If I DON'T report hatecrime language within the institution I work > for, I can be fired. If I were to report it and have it be ignored, I > run the risk of lawsuit from the individuals that it would be directed > at. All it really boils down to is asking people to exercise a little forethought on gathering the INTENT of the language being used before making any rash actions or judgements of their character. If you see them truly and directly verbally or physically attacking someone based on their truly bigoted or truly hateful thoughts toward them, yes, sure, do something about it. What Aerocoon did was based purely on a technicality. Laws don't have a sense of humor, and he used the literal letter of the law to push his own agenda. After all, it's just language. It's an arrangement of ASCII characters that're redistributed to clients connected to our server and are only stored on our servers in a buffer in memory long enough to carry out the distribution tasks. They only user data that sticks around is the content of a channel's topic message, and even that is only stored in a temporary buffer until it's changed. It's like the upset users of the network are asking us to be like, "OH WAIT, GRAB THAT PACKET! STOP IT FROM BEING SENT TO THE CLIENTS! IT CONTAINS SOMETHING OFFENSIVE!" > So in short, I am truly sorry in my own way for what happened. But in > the grand scheme of things, it is better to have that kind of bigotry > gone from another place within the world, if only to insure that > FurNet or any variant there of is not pulled offline in full. I agree. True bigotry and hatred should never have to be witnessed or experienced. Remove it from every part of the world that it exists in, but leave the jokers alone. They're not harming anyone and they don't hate anyone. Their sense of humor just differs from yours. --- Scott 'Simba' G [address redacted]@pridelands.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:21:56 -0800 (PST) From: AgVulpine <[address redacted]@ameritech.net> Reply-To: [address redacted]@ameritech.net Subject: Request to have this CHAT moved to #FurnetBitchSesson To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org I'm sorry... The first 40 emails spanning 3 days of discussion was fine... but to wake up to 66 fresh steaming loads of shit in my inbox is just obserd. The 5 to 8 of you can take this conversation to #FurnetBitchSession and leave the rest of us out of it. - AgVulpine PS. Simba. Stop being an asshat and control your trolls. I have logs of dozens of occasions where your "channel community" has wandered outside of #safurs to mass query, mass invite, message flood, join/part flood, and topic flood peace-loving channels via "war scripts" and even a botnet on one memorable occasion. Indeed, you have even been employed to take action (kill/akill) against these offenses in the past, which you kindly obliged. [thanks] Lets stop the shenanigans and call it a day. -- AgV. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Reply-To: <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> From: "Robert Wagman" <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> To: <[address redacted]@irc.furnet.org> Subject: RE: Request to have this CHAT moved to #FurnetBitchSesson Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 02:45:43 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: AgVulpine [mailto:[address redacted]@ameritech.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 2:22 AM [...] > but to wake up to 66 fresh steaming loads of shit in my inbox is just obserd. > > The 5 to 8 of you can take this conversation to #FurnetBitchSession and leave the rest of us out of it. > > PS. Simba. Stop being an asshat and control your trolls. Hi AgVulpine. Evidently you have missed Simba's previous email regarding the subject of this discussion list. This discussion is what the list is here for. If you do not like this discussion regarding FurNet occuring on the FurNet discussion mailing list, you are free to get the list in digest mode or just subscribe to the announce list. PS: I am sorry you feel this way about our channel community. Evidently you are apparently still harbouring some sort of ill will against us because you used to be a member of our community and an op in #safurs until you were removed and kickbanned for conduct which the administrators of the channel didn't appreciate. Since that point you have of course been a strong opponent of #safurs, and while I can understand bitterness, it's time to let it go. Regards, - Bobby --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 02:20:33 -0800 (PST) From: AgVulpine <[address redacted]@ameritech.net> Reply-To: [address redacted]@ameritech.net Subject: RE: Request to have this CHAT moved to #FurnetBitchSesson To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org --- Robert Wagman <[address redacted]@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > Hi AgVulpine. Evidently you have missed Simba's previous email regarding > the subject of this discussion list. This discussion is what the list is > here for. If you do not like this discussion regarding FurNet occuring > on the FurNet discussion mailing list, you are free to get the list in > digest mode or just subscribe to the announce list. I don't much care what Simba says. This forum is for the discussion of Furnet issues. "Discussion" does not include snipping out poignant facts and issues raised, to merely throw a slick-tongued fecal reply like yours below. As I see it, everyone has said their part by now... nothing more will be accomplished here. > PS: I am sorry you feel this way about our channel community. Evidently > you are apparently still harbouring some sort of ill will against us > because you used to be a member of our community and an op in #safurs > until you were removed and kickbanned for conduct which the > administrators of the channel didn't appreciate. Since that point you > have of course been a strong opponent of #safurs, and while I can > understand bitterness, it's time to let it go. Nice warped sense of reality you have... I suppose next you're going to accuse me of being Sibe? Sorry, i'm not biting your hook, troll. This will be my last post regarding this matter. Better luck next time. I encourage all other readers to resist the temptation of replying to you. - AgVulpine [ Please resist replying to bobby, folks. Don't be a gullible fur. No matter how thought out your post, a troll will simply snip out what they can't use. -AgV. ] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:42:45 +0000 From: LeoNerd <[address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Subject: Re: Netsplits On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:53:12 -0500 "BlakDrgn Adanthios" <[address redacted]@cfl.rr.com> wrote: > Scott, if you all setup some sort of pay pal account or such, I'd > probably kick in a 10 to 20 spot every now and then. (Depending on my > own financial situation.) I agree... I was planning to propose a similar setup myself... It would have to be properly international, so that us UK-types can still pay in our GBP and the German / etc... types can pay by EUR or whatever they have this week.. > I am aware as a whole, the furry fandom isn't "loaded". But in my eyes, > if you use it, pay for it, whether it be a monthly fee or a donation. Indeed... I think a donation idea would work... some of the better-off furs would put money in; it'd be "unfair" from the point of view that some would pay more than others (indeed most, not at all), yet by their nature, the ones that did donate would be doing so out of some altruistic social responsibility feelings, so provided the money went to (in their eyes at least) a "good cause", I don't think they'd have a problem with this... > I do believe this topic has arisen before, but was mostly shrugged off. > Or the "well now I pay for it so I have a say in what happens to it." > Crap came up. If this sort of system was to be put in place, you all > would need to make it very clear that any monies donated would be just > that, donated, for you all to do with as you please as long as it went > towards the irc network, And not for your Ferraris and Bentleys. =D Of course.. :) -- LeoNerd [address redacted]@leonerd.org.uk ICQ# 4135350 FurryCode v1.3: FFL2 A C D- H++ M- P+ R+ T+++ W Z Sm++ RLCT* a20 cl++++ d e+ f- h+ i++ j p-- sm+ Decode this or get your own FurryCode at: http://www.vulpine.pp.se/cgi-bin/furcode --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:17:16 -0500 From: Damien Evilangel <[address redacted]@mail2me.com> Subject: Re: Fw: RE: Request to have this CHAT moved to #FurnetBitchSesson In-reply-to: To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org > [ Please resist replying to bobby, folks. Don't be a gullible fur. > No matter how thought out your post, a troll will simply snip out what they > can't use. -AgV. ] Uhm, for someone who so badly wanted this discussion to be moved away from the listserv (a whole day after we agreed to table discussion, no less), you sure are kicking up a hell of a lot of dust in here. Maybe you should actually practice what you preach? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to a digested list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org To subscribe to the announcement list: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org For additional commands: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org