Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:03:19 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Usual #safurs Problems
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Just a note to all,
#safurs currently has no OPs and no Founder due to a fun day playing
kick/ban the snowpony so we can not have her monitor the channel and we can
wreck havoc. It's going to stay that way for the moment.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:15:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Usual out-of-line comments about #safurs
I have some simple solutions regarding #safurs and the drama therein.
These are my opinions, and I'm asking the rest of you for yours. Coming
up with methodology of dealing with problems on the network is a team
effort, and I believe that the methods that Snowpony is using are out of
line.
1. Leave the channel. You're creating your own drama. There's no need
to "monitor" a channel unless asked by an operator of that channel to
do so.
2. When people come whining to you that they're getting trolled by
individuals, educate them in the ways of using the tools available to
them: ignore, silence, and ban. If it's excessive, monitor the
channels BEING TROLLED, and help them get rid of the troublemakers.
Taking over a channel is way out of line for an oper. Don't do it.
You're supposed to be helping prevent channel takeovers, not doing them
yourself. This isn't the first time that you've completely disregarded
the golden rule of operdom: Don't interfere with the inner workings of a
channel or personal disputes. IRC is a non-moderated transport medium and
as such, the operators are not responsible for content therein.
We are responsible for educating the users as to what tools they have
available to them.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:00:09 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Usual out-of-line comments about #safurs
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On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> I have some simple solutions regarding #safurs and the drama therein.
> These are my opinions, and I'm asking the rest of you for yours. Coming up
> with methodology of dealing with problems on the network is a team effort,
> and I believe that the methods that Snowpony is using are out of line.
Since this is all addressed at myself; I'll respond then.
> 1. Leave the channel. You're creating your own drama. There's no need
> to "monitor" a channel unless asked by an operator of that channel to
> do so.
No. Since monitoring that channel I've successfully contained multiple
trolling runs from the renegade degenerates that use #safurs as their base. I
have never 'created' any drama; #safurs does that quite well by itself. They
are all drama queens by nature and live for it. Im just keeping it in their
channel.
They have been told on multiple occasions that if they cause trouble around
other channels I will monitor theirs. They have also been told that if they
try to remove me from the channel that I will take action to ensure I can do
my job. They have been told this on multiple occasions. They are merely
reaping the result of their own actions.
It would be of course a lot easier if there was a fellow IRCOP constantly
belittling other IRCOPs in the very channel they are trying to sort out. It
is one thing to be silent Simba; but publicly belittling a fellow IRCOP is
at best poor taste.
>From the things you have said about myself on a somewhat regular basis in
#safurs however I am assuming manners is something you are not familiar with.
It is particularly pitiful to see someone whom I would have held in at least
some respect before they started name-calling to be gleefully looking forward
to paying me out on the admin mailing list amongst a channel of spammers,
trolls and other low-life scum.
> 2. When people come whining to you that they're getting trolled by
> individuals, educate them in the ways of using the tools available to
> them: ignore, silence, and ban. If it's excessive, monitor the
> channels BEING TROLLED, and help them get rid of the troublemakers.
We always do that first. You have sat in #furnet long enough to know our
first response is to tell them to ignore it. But when you have groups of
individuals deciding to band together to do channel takeovers and troll major
channels for the explicit reason to cause trouble then it is a responsibility
to ensure the stability of the network.
Responsibility; I know it's a hard word for you to understand since you never
show it.
> Taking over a channel is way out of line for an oper. Don't do it.
> You're supposed to be helping prevent channel takeovers, not doing them
> yourself. This isn't the first time that you've completely disregarded
> the golden rule of operdom: Don't interfere with the inner workings of a
> channel or personal disputes. IRC is a non-moderated transport medium and
> as such, the operators are not responsible for content therein.
> We are responsible for educating the users as to what tools they have
> available to them.
Do not go 'high and mighty' on my actions Simba.
We are also responsible for taking all reasonable measures of ensuring that
the user experience is not unduly hampered by irresponsible hoodlums who are
here solely to disrupt the network.
The gold rule of operdom: Don't interfere with the inner workings of a channel
or personal disputes. We don't. We interfere with interchannel trolls, QUIT
spammers advertising copyrighted material and repeat offenders whom are there
only to cause problems.
At no time have I 'interfered' with personal disputes and outside of #safurs I
have never interfered with the inner workings of channel disputes. The only
reason #safurs became an exception is because it is full of nothing but
problem people who use it to conspire for illicit activity across the entire
network.
You might want to sit around with popcorn and watch that channel prey upon the
rest of the network but I don't. Unlike you I imagine I have some sense of
morality that goes above encouraging illegal activity on the very network I
maintain.
Using a channel as your own little place to vent details about the
administration of the network; posting logs and messages that are private to
the administration of this network (particularly ones from this mailing list)
are also way out of line for an oper.
You have not lifted one finger to help the users of this network. You have no
respect for your fellow IRCOPs or anyone else. You take no responsibility for
the very channel you sit in constantly; even when they are busy doing DOS
attacks/mass-trolls and channel takeovers and QUIT spamming other channels.
In fact the only time you ever take interest is when something is going on;
and that is only to watch and derive some form of perverse pleasure out of the
drama that unfolds.
You don't like my methods; fine. But I would not be poking sticks in someone
else's backyard when there is still flies swarming over the filth in your own.
For now #safurs remains unOPed. I trust you will not take it upon yourself to
change this fact until everyone else voices in with an opinion.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:55:02 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Usual out-of-line comments about #safurs
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> No. Since monitoring that channel I've successfully contained
> multiple trolling runs from the renegade degenerates that use #safurs
> as their base.
Uh huh. Sure. Logs plz.
> They have been told on multiple occasions that if they cause trouble
> around other channels I will monitor theirs. They have also been told
> that if they try to remove me from the channel that I will take action
> to ensure I can do my job. They have been told this on multiple
> occasions. They are merely reaping the result of their own actions.
They don't want you in their channel, they can kick you out. If they
didn't want me there, they could kick me out, too. The difference is that
I won't go all power trippy and be like, "BEHOLD MY MIGHTY OPER POWERS,
ALL SHALL SUFFER MY WRATH!"
> It would be of course a lot easier if there was a fellow IRCOP
> constantly belittling other IRCOPs in the very channel they are trying
> to sort out. It is one thing to be silent Simba; but publicly
> belittling a fellow IRCOP is at best poor taste.
Everyone belittles everyone else in that channel. You take it
personally. That's your first mistake.
> From the things you have said about myself on a somewhat regular basis
> in #safurs however I am assuming manners is something you are not
> familiar with. It is particularly pitiful to see someone whom I would
> have held in at least some respect before they started name-calling to
> be gleefully looking forward to paying me out on the admin mailing
> list amongst a channel of spammers, trolls and other low-life scum.
Anyone who knows me personally knows that I can be almost as
well-mannered as Samuel Conway. Something Awful and #SAFurs is a place
where there can be an outlet for being non-mannered, so to speak. None of
the folks in there are "low-life scum" in real life. You're taking things
waaaay too seriously.
> We always do that first. You have sat in #furnet long enough to know
> our first response is to tell them to ignore it. But when you have
> groups of individuals deciding to band together to do channel
> takeovers and troll major channels for the explicit reason to cause
> trouble then it is a responsibility to ensure the stability of the
> network.
At no time does the stability of the network get affected by trolling
and spamming. I'd like to think that the servers sit on enough bandwidth
so that a few extra lines of text won't take them down. Nobody "bands
together" to do "channel takeovers". Everyone knows that taking over
channels on a network with IRCServices is a futile effort, unless the
channel is poorly watched after. The only one taking over any channels
right now is you; rather unfairly, I might add. You have commands that
allow you to do so. If someone successfully takes over a registered
channel and the owner or operators have to come whining to us about it,
it's time to educate those regulars and operators of that channel on how
to run a channel.
> Responsibility; I know it's a hard word for you to understand since
> you never show it.
Ahh, there's where you're flat out wrong. The difference is that I
know where my responsibilities lie and you are trying to create more
responsibilities than you have. In a sense, you're being masochistic.
See, when I got home last night, I noticed that ocelot and lion were
disconnected from the rest of the network. My responsibility lies in
correcting that problem. I had company over, but I took time out of
visiting with them to correct the problem. If anyone had called me while
I was out having a fun-filled weekend to let me know that it was down, I
would have stopped what I was doing and fixed the problem. That's
responsibility for you. Micromanaging and power-tripping are not
responsibilities that we have. You're creating those on your own.
I also stayed up until 3:30am last night when I had work in the
morning to hear what the folks in #SAFurs had to say, read the logs for
what happened, and to write up my e-mail. That's also showing
responsibility for what happens on the network.
> We are also responsible for taking all reasonable measures of ensuring
> that the user experience is not unduly hampered by irresponsible
> hoodlums who are here solely to disrupt the network.
They're here solely to have fun, same as everyone else. Last I
checked, the network wasn't being disrupted by this: The servers are
still running, people are still connecting to them, and they are still
linked to each other. You're confusing network operations with user
quarrels.
> The gold rule of operdom: Don't interfere with the inner workings of a
> channel or personal disputes. We don't. We interfere with
> interchannel trolls, QUIT spammers advertising copyrighted material
> and repeat offenders whom are there only to cause problems.
The "quit message" spammers spam #SAFurs just as much as they spam
every other channel. That's not even a part of this discussion.
> At no time have I 'interfered' with personal disputes and outside of
> #safurs I have never interfered with the inner workings of channel
> disputes. The only reason #safurs became an exception is because it
> is full of nothing but problem people who use it to conspire for
> illicit activity across the entire network.
Taking over a channel and clearing the xOP lists is not your idea of
interfering with inner workings of channels? You got kicked from a
channel from one or two individuals and you completely wiped the Chanserv
database of its entries. That's not due diligence. That's power
tripping.
You've got a real paranoia problem going on here. "conspire for
illicit activity across the entire network" is not what it's used
for. It's a chat channel, for crying out loud.
> You might want to sit around with popcorn and watch that channel prey
> upon the rest of the network but I don't. Unlike you I imagine I have
> some sense of morality that goes above encouraging illegal activity on
> the very network I maintain.
I'm not encouraging "illegal activity". The ONLY activity that comes
close to "illegal" is Sibe's wanting to share copyrighted art, which
#SAFurs is just as sick of as everyone else. Everything else is just
text; lines of ASCII characters being redistributed to the computer
screens of people across the globe. Nothing more, nothing less. It's our
job to make sure that those lines of text get distributed. Nothing more,
nothing less.
> Using a channel as your own little place to vent details about the
> administration of the network; posting logs and messages that are
> private to the administration of this network (particularly ones from
> this mailing list) are also way out of line for an oper.
I agree with that assesment. Posting messages from this list is
probably out of line. If I've done that, I apologize.
> You have not lifted one finger to help the users of this network.
> You have no respect for your fellow IRCOPs or anyone else. You take
> no responsibility for the very channel you sit in constantly; even
> when they are busy doing DOS attacks/mass-trolls and channel takeovers
> and QUIT spamming other channels.
I lift my fingers to help the users of this network all the time.
There's one particular finger that I'm lifting in your general direction
right now. When I'm at my keyboard and someone asks a question in
#Furnet, I do my best to answer them as quickly as possible. Most of the
time I don't need to, though, 'cause the questions are fielded by the
other very helpful folks we have in there. If they "troll" other
channels, and someone brings it to my attention, I go watch the channel
that is being "targeted". If they are, indeed, being disruptive to where
the regulars of those channels are genuinely annoyed, I'll offer
suggestions to the operators of the channel on how to get rid of them
using the tools which the network provides to them.
> In fact the only time you ever take interest is when something is
> going on; and that is only to watch and derive some form of perverse
> pleasure out of the drama that unfolds.
The drama is funny, I must admit. It's amusing to see people get so
worked up over absolutely nothing.
> You don't like my methods; fine. But I would not be poking sticks in
> someone else's backyard when there is still flies swarming over the
> filth in your own.
My actions are clean, thank you very much. I do my part to keep my
server running, to educate the users, and to field questions that they
might have. That's all that we're here for. Quit making it harder than
it is.
> For now #safurs remains unOPed. I trust you will not take it upon
> yourself to change this fact until everyone else voices in with an
> opinion.
If nobody else responds within a week, you better believe I'm going
to take it upon myself to change it. What you're doing is completely
unfair and out of line.
I'm in this 'cause I like to help and because I have the resources to
do so. You're in it to derive some sort of perverse pleasure from having
something to rule over and control. Or, at least, it seems that way to
me.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:05:05 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Usual out-of-line comments about #safurs
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On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:55:02 -0500 (EST)
> From: Scott 'Simba' G <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
> Subject: Re: Usual out-of-line comments about #safurs
>
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
>
> > No. Since monitoring that channel I've successfully contained
> > multiple trolling runs from the renegade degenerates that use #safurs
> > as their base.
>
> Uh huh. Sure. Logs plz.
You want me to post nearly 7 months of logs? Fine. You can be the one to
sort through them as well.
Since they are rather large the logs are available at this URL:
http://snowy.org/safurs.tar.gz
Those whom are curious should go back and read around the days whenever Simba
decides to voice his opinion on this mailing lsit about my practises. It
usually is quite interesting what he says in #safurs at the time.
Now there were a lot of issues to addess in this email but since you actually
decided to debate this in #furnet earlier today and rather than waste my time
re-iterating those issues I will just insert the logs of todays discussion
instead. Should you wish for me to address all the responses in your email
still after this feel free to ask.
03:04:28<@Simba> Hey, do you have access to make DNS changes on the furnet.org domain name? lion and ocelot aren't in the rotary any more.
03:04:50<@Snowpony> Only Hurga and Aeto have that access as far as I know.
03:05:05<@Simba> Okay.
03:07:58<@Simba> I'm trying to phase out ocelot before it goes off-line 'cause the T1 goes power-down or we move the machine out of the facility that it's in. It's okay that ocelot isn't in the rotary, but lion should be. ocelot.furnet.org should also resolve to the IP that lion is using, 'cause some folks are referencing it directly.
03:09:41<@Simba> I'll just send it to the admin list. Though, I'm not sure if anyone but Snowpony and I read that list. :p
03:16:31 * Snowpony wells, "It worth a shot Simba."
03:16:45<@Snowpony> Try also emailing Hurga and Aeto directly.
03:16:51<@Snowpony> That sometimes speeds things up.
03:21:17<@Lymril> I read it, but I don't respond a lot. My tech knowlege is pretty limited. Most of the stuff concerns server owners.
03:25:29<@Simba> Some of the recent stuff has been fishing for comments and suggestions on solidifying operational protocol. Things like ... how situations should or should not be handled. I'd like to believe "use your best judgement" is a viable solution, but when differences in opinion come up, there should be a set of guidelines to adhere to. I've been playing a bit of devil's advocate in attempt to wake us up and get some stuff down in concrete, but nobody seems to be co
03:26:26<+Rally> ..'nobody seems to be co' ...?
03:26:36<@Simba> mmenting
03:27:30 * Snowpony thinks Lymril was actually refering to your post on the status of lion and ocelot Simba.
03:28:18<@Simba> Right, and I was referring to the list traffic in general.
03:29:35 * Snowpony nods.
03:29:52<@Lymril> I'm not sure what to think of the situation. I don't have a problem with #SAFurs being a channel for people who want to be unpleasant to each other provided it all stayed within the channel, but it seems to attract a lot of people who want to take their harassment and abuse to OTHER channels.
03:35:40<@Simba> Right. And the question that comes up is: Do you take down and/or punish an entire channel of which some or most of its members are not involved or do you deal with those troublemaking individuals directly? And by "dealing with" them, do you attempt to approach them as a civil human being or do you just outright take administrative action on them?
03:36:33<@Lymril> Well, #SAFurs seem to pride themselves on not being civil, as I understand.
03:37:04 * Snowpony thinks this is not the channel in which to discuss this Simba.
03:37:10<@Simba> Right. In the channel, they're not exactly civil. AnimalControl/MethodLoser in particular doesn't seem to be able to be reasoned with.
03:37:16<@Snowpony> Keep it to the admin list okay?
03:37:27<@Simba> Okay, Snowpony, what is?
03:37:58<@Snowpony> The admin list. Or any other channel that is not the help channel for furnet.
03:38:32<@Simba> oic THis is just a "help" channel? When did that happen?
03:38:44-!- Topic for #furnet: For Questions on services and FurNet related issues. Please, no idling in channel. You'll be politely asked to leave, then kicked. Do NOT give your passwords to ANYONE. Want to help yourself? Try /msg HelpServ and type the name of the services you need help with (Chanserv,NickServ and MemoServ)
03:38:44-!- Topic set by ZetaWolf [] [Sat Dec 13 13:24:06 2003]
03:38:59<@Simba> It seem to be the only place to interact with the other administrative staff.
03:39:18<@Snowpony> When the topic reads: For Questions on services and FurNet related issues. Please, no idling in channel. You'll be politely asked to leave, then kicked. Do NOT give your passwords to ANYONE. Want to help yourself? Try /msg HelpServ and type the name of the services you need help with (Chanserv,NickServ and MemoServ)
03:39:36 * Rally doesn't have a problem with the topic and keeps his mouth shut
03:39:43[Users #furnet]
03:39:43[@FurBot] [@Simba ] [@Stephen] [+WaYa]
03:39:43[@Lymril] [@Snowpony] [+Rally ]
03:39:43-!- Irssi: #furnet: Total of 7 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 0 normal]
03:39:57<+Rally> It wouldn't be the first time #safurs has been discussed in here
03:40:09<@Lymril> I don't see a problem with discussing it here as long as it's not being used for anything else, especially considering there's nothing being discussed on the admin list.
03:40:40<@Simba> And since there are no users in here asking questions.
03:40:48<@Snowpony> I do see a problem. Naely that any user can drop in on a moment's notice.
03:43:02<@Snowpony> I am intrigued Simba; what made you decide to speak up now anyways?
03:43:45<@Simba> "decide to speak up now"? As opposed to when? When everything was fine and I didn't see any questionable actions being taken place?
03:44:47<@Snowpony> Well you started this little debate. You decided to air it publically. I am curious as to what you hope to benefit from this discussion?
03:45:18<@Snowpony> After all you have never discussed any other 'issue' with me except in #safurs and on the mailing list before.
03:46:35<@Simba> Or as opposed to the time that I've been mostly away from the network because I have a job that's been taking up 10 to 14 hours of each of my days? Ohhh, you think I'm benefiting from any of this? I don't benefit. The network benefits because we end up with standardized, organized protocol.
03:47:38<@Snowpony> You want a standardized, organized protocol - I suggest then talking about it instead of 'playing devils advocate' like you have been over the last few months.
03:48:08<@Simba> I tried that route.
03:48:20<@Snowpony> You obviously didn't try hard.
03:49:15<@Snowpony> We are working on protocols; we are working on policy which will allow us to standardize how we approach and deal with situations.
03:49:48<@Simba> Individually, it seems.
03:49:53<@Snowpony> Inciting us to deal with more situations and waste our time does not seem to me to be an efficant use of time.
03:50:20<@Snowpony> Not individually Simba; it is just that no-one trusts you to be involved.
03:50:35<@Simba> NOBODY talks about it, though. It's like, "Oh, by the way, this crap happened, this is how I dealt with it."
03:50:53<@Snowpony> For some funny reason they think that whatever you hear will end up on a website or the #safurs channel log.
03:51:08<@Snowpony> I don't know why; perhaps you could be good enough to explain that one to me hrm?
03:51:29<@Simba> Now you're just being insane.
03:51:32<@Snowpony> Trust Simba. Its something we needs as adminstrators to do our job.
03:51:35<@Simba> What the hell are you talking about?
03:52:32<@Simba> I don't post stuff on Something Awful. I don't even have an account.
03:54:03<@Snowpony> Do you deny that only just yesterday you told people in #safurs that you were emailing the admin list. In particular this line: 18:17:39< Simba> Okay, e-mail sent. I made suggestions about general guidelines on oper behavior and asked for comments on t
03:54:40<@Simba> Okay... and what was wrong with that statement?
03:54:44<@Snowpony> (cont) hem from the other admins. If nobody says anything, I'll just assume it's a free-for-all and take my own action.
03:55:04<@Snowpony> That's just an example.
03:55:12<@Simba> I'm being honest. That's exactly what I did.
03:55:16<@Simba> Honesty is the best policy.
03:55:19<@Snowpony> You tell them everything you are doing Simba.
03:55:35<@Simba> Right... and?
03:55:40<@Snowpony> Simba; do you remember when you first joined furnet what Aeto would have told you?
03:55:41<@Simba> What's wrong with that?
03:56:14<@Simba> I guess I can't.
03:56:58<@Snowpony> Did or did not Aeto tell you that things said on the admin mailing list are to be considered private?
03:57:47<@Simba> I don't remember him saying that, no.
03:58:30<@Snowpony> Lymril: what about you? Has or has the admin list always been considered private - not for public dispersal?
03:58:44 * Snowpony certainly knows she was toldthat.
03:59:27<@Snowpony> Common sense would also dictate that a list just for administrators to deal with network/admin issues is not meant for public dispersal - otherwise it would be a public mailing list.
04:00:00<@Snowpony> And yet we have nice logs likof email messagees posted to the net such as this: http://www.cimeris.com/~simba/aryanfurs/adminlist.txt
04:00:08<@Lymril> I don't remember anyone specifically *saying* the admin list was private, but I had always assumed that it was.
04:02:04<@Lymril> Simba: Snowpony showed me some of the things posted on the admin list that you made public on a web page. Personally, I don't think you should be doing that.
04:02:12<@Simba> Again, a time when NOBODY else was commenting and you were being rediculous.
04:03:11<@Snowpony> Not too mention the fact you take particular delight in ridiculing fellow network admins in front of people of 'low standing' for thier enjoyment.
04:04:25<@Simba> Know thy enemy. If I stuck up for you, I'd get booted from the channel and wouldn't be able to see what they're doing.
04:05:10<@Snowpony> Know thy enemy. Sounds like monitoring to me. Gee - isn't that the thing you just got upset about me doing?
04:05:25<@Snowpony> Hypocracy at its finest I see.
04:05:26<@Simba> Yeah, but you're being so intrusive about it. They trust me.
04:06:31<@Simba> They don't trust you, 'cause you fly off the handle and don't understand their humor.
04:06:34<@Snowpony> If I am so invasive then why do I still end up finding most of the trolls around the network? It is not like I antagonize them. In fact they have quite a field day swearing at me. I am there - I am visible.
04:07:27<@Snowpony> if I 'flew off the handle' and did not understand thier humour' - don't you think I would have removed every single one of them from the network by now? After all this is a group of individuals who have called me everything under the sun. Most people would say rather offensive things.
04:07:54<@Snowpony> And when do I respond? Only when they kick me from the channel; hampering my monitoring.
04:08:14<@Snowpony> Which they know I would not be doing if they had not be trolling again on a large scale over the christmas break.
04:11:17<@Snowpony> A personal note Simba. At any point in time you could have contacted me privately. You could have discussed this - instead you always have chosen to retaliate by publically slandering me; and giving obscene gestures or ridiculing me in emails on the mailing list.
04:11:57<@Snowpony> It is very hard to work with someone whom shows not one ounce of respect. One tends to think less of them. Especially when they show no remorse in any of thier actions.
04:12:50<@Snowpony> I would hope you consider long and hard on the damange you have done to the reputation of the people you have used in your little attempt at martydom by playing the devil's advocate.
04:12:57<@Simba> I've tried reasoning with you in the past. You're just as bull-headed as I am about things.
04:13:18<@Snowpony> Next time try reasoning on a more civil level.
04:15:18<@Snowpony> You can ask anyone else; I listen. I will consider everything - but it it makes it a lot easier to listen when you don't have lines like 'Snowpony's a dramawhore. Also rapist.' sitting in the back of your head.
04:15:24<@Simba> Alrighty. I'm late for work, have to take a shower, and will continue with this later.
04:15:40 * Snowpony nods, "I have to retire to bed."
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:00:03 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: FW: Re: #AryanFurs
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Forwarded since this seems to have not been CCed to the list.
I disagree with the statement made by Simba since this isn't EFNet, DALnet or
Undernet - if people want an unmoderated forum where they can have their
channels full of abuse etc then so be it.
We don't allow File Servers on here because of that reason. The channels
mentioned by Simba in this discussion involve elements of role-play and social
commentary but do not actively distribute such material. Aryanfurs is likely
in the same category; however unlike all the other channels mentioned here -
they deliberately voice rather unsavory opinions in their TOPIC header. The
rest at least try to keep a mature TOPIC header.
If we are here to do nothing but provide a communication medium then I have to
ask why? Who here really wants to be hosting another forum destined to be
filled with #!!!!!freepedosexpics or even a furryxdcc service full of
copyrighted material from talented artists who should be rewarded for their
work and not have it stolen from them.
Furnet is for the community; it shouldn't be trashed by the few individuals
whom would use it for their own crude and rude pleasure.
I think a policy of clean TOPICs and no File servers is not that much to ask
for. I am all for free speech but leaves keep it in the channels and not on
the front door.
The community as a whole is full of vibrant individuals from all walks of
life, all age groups, races, gender and sexuality. I think having topics that
cater to be accessible to all those groups is not asking too much.
I for one would like to know I could have my sister use furnet without having
to explain to her why COONS and NIGGERS is part of the list of words
assaulting her when she brings up the channel list.
It is the 21st century. Lets leave the hate crimes back in the past where
they belong.
The last line of this particular email sent by Simba states:
"...unfortunately, there's nothing that we can do about it."
There is nothing we can't do. There are only things that we won't do or that
are impractical to achieve. Lets not make keeping a furnet free of such
racial abuses one of those things we choose not to action.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:47:38 -0500
From: BlakDrgn Adanthios <[address redacted]@cfl.rr.com>
To: [address redacted]@snowy.org
Subject: FW: #AryanFurs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott 'Simba' G [mailto:[address redacted]@pridelands.org]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 4:32 AM
> To: [address redacted]@cfl.rr.com
> Subject: Re: #AryanFurs
>
>
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, BlakDrgn Adanthios wrote:
>
> > I'd just like to lodge my disgust at the fact the admins of furnet
are
> > allowing this channel (#AryanFurs) to exist on furnet. Their topics
> > are racially offensive and needs to be taken care of.
>
> IRC is a non-moderated transport medium and, as such, the
> administrators of the network are not to responsible for the content
of
> channels or private messages therein. It is the administrators'
> responsibility to ensure that the servers stay running, connected to
each
> other, and remain available for users to connect to them. It is the
> administrstors' responsibility to educate users on how to use the
network
> and the tools that the network provides to them, should a question
come
> up. That's where the responsibility stops. Any other "service" is
> considered a courtesy. Unfortunately, censoring content is not a
courtesy
> that we extend.
>
> If a channel topic or discussion is considered offensive in one's
> opinion, that person has the option to ignore it and not participate
in
> its discussions. If you are a regular for a channel in which a topic
> comes up that you find offensive, you then have the right to directly
ask
> the persons involved in setting that topic or participating in that
> discussion to change it. If you are an operator for a channel in the
same
> scenario, you have the right to enforce your views on that channel.
> Neither you, nor the administrators of the network have the right to
> enforce their views or the views of others onto a channel which they
are
> not a regular operator for.
>
> What you're asking for is censorship, and I'm afraid that we
can't do
> that. If we do, we'll start getting people asking us to censor other
> things that in some people's opinion, they might find offensive, such
as:
>
> heterosexual sexual activity
> homosexual sexual activity
> beastiality
> changing smelly diapers on an adult
> having smelly diapers on an adult
> acting like an infant
> being furry (some people find that offensive)
> Computer Programming
> TV/VCR Repair
> Sally Struthers
>
> ... just to name a few that might or might not apply on this network.
>
> I appreciate your concern, but unfortunately, there's nothing that
we
> can do about it.
>
> ---
>
> Scott 'Simba' G
> [address redacted]@pridelands.org
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Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:09:45 +0100
From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #AryanFurs
On Saturday, Jan 17 2004 at 18:00:03 +1000, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
[about #aryanfurs and offensive topics]
I draw the line where there's danger for the network or too much work for
the operators created. Copyright violations or kiddie porn obviouly would
draw the attention of the authorities to FurNet, so there's a good reason
to take action against them.
Same with hate crimes. Callings like "kill all niggers" are obviously
forbidden at least in my country. But the topic I've seen on #aryanfurs
was "dolphins are the niggers of the ocean" or similar, which I thought
was somewhat funny because of its absurdity. Well, it contains the word
"nigger" too, but I don't think we should just filter for words, this is
not AOL. (Remember when AOL filtered for words like "breast", which made
discussions about breast cancer impossible? I think they gave it up after
that incident.)
> I for one would like to know I could have my sister use furnet without having
> to explain to her why COONS and NIGGERS is part of the list of words
> assaulting her when she brings up the channel list.
What's wrong with coons, or rather, 'coons? Meeko is still a popular
character...
I think you just gave a good example why words aren't really a problem, and
why context matters.
We have to realize that the scum in #aryanfurs is just a bunch of trolls
who like to tick other people off. Shutting down the channel is not feasible,
it would just pop up again using a different name. Rules for topics are
unlikely to work either, these folks tend to get creative to work around
the limitations - there's a lot of stuff some people feel offended about.
But if they don't stop using illegal callings in their topics, or if they
use sufficiently offensive topics to draw a lot of complaints, I'd just AKILL
them all. I won't waste too much thought with lowlifes whose hobby it is
to get on other people's nerves.
- Hurga
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:43:22 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #AryanFurs
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Sat, 17 Jan 2004, Hanno Foest wrote:
> I draw the line where there's danger for the network or too much work for
> the operators created. Copyright violations or kiddie porn obviouly would
> draw the attention of the authorities to FurNet, so there's a good reason
> to take action against them.
>
> Same with hate crimes. Callings like "kill all niggers" are obviously
> forbidden at least in my country. But the topic I've seen on #aryanfurs
> was "dolphins are the niggers of the ocean" or similar, which I thought
> was somewhat funny because of its absurdity. Well, it contains the word
> "nigger" too, but I don't think we should just filter for words, this is
> not AOL. (Remember when AOL filtered for words like "breast", which made
> discussions about breast cancer impossible? I think they gave it up after
> that incident.)
It was not merely because it contained the word; it was the context of the
nature of the channel it was attached too.... unlike AOL and 'breast' which
had a hit and miss effect we can be sure that the context here was not for use
in describing a slang definition of a ethnic minority for use in advertising
medical screening services.
Whilst it may be a funny on some level; this is merely only one of an example
of topics aryanfurs has used over the months. These others come to mind:
KILL THE JEWS
____+____ ALL HAIL OUR FEARLESS WHITEFURRED LEADER! ADOLF HITLER! HEIL
HITLER! www.stormfront.org WHITE POWER ____+____
AUSCHWITZ. THE MEANING OF PAIN. THE WAY THAT WE WANT YOU TO DIE. | NO RACCOONS
ALLOWED
I do not think any of these were meant to be taken in a funny context. But
the line of 'We do not censor' was forced upon me when I asked for these
topics to be changed as well.
> > I for one would like to know I could have my sister use furnet without having
> > to explain to her why COONS and NIGGERS is part of the list of words
> > assaulting her when she brings up the channel list.
>
> What's wrong with coons, or rather, 'coons? Meeko is still a popular
> character...
COON is then (not nice) name of a (black) aboriginal. It should be taken in
context as at that stage they did not have NIGGER in the subject (they seem to
alternate). It is not a big leap of faith to assume they are not meaning the
polite version when you have a channel name of 'aryanfurs' which as Ive shown
in the past definitely does appear to be supporting white supremacy and
nazism.
> We have to realize that the scum in #aryanfurs is just a bunch of trolls
> who like to tick other people off. Shutting down the channel is not feasible,
> it would just pop up again using a different name. Rules for topics are
> unlikely to work either, these folks tend to get creative to work around
> the limitations - there's a lot of stuff some people feel offended about.
> But if they don't stop using illegal callings in their topics, or if they
> use sufficiently offensive topics to draw a lot of complaints, I'd just AKILL
> them all. I won't waste too much thought with lowlifes whose hobby it is
> to get on other people's nerves.
I said nothing about shutting down the channel; in fact all I asked was that
we instigate some guidelines on what are appropriate topics and what are not.
Ones promoting hate crimes I thought would not be?
Of course I realize these are a bunch of trolls. My question is - do we just
let them keep pushing further and see else what they can get away with or do
we actually do something about them?
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Received: (qmail 12006 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2004 19:19:02 -0000
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:22:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004, Gauss Jordan wrote:
> I'm one of the moderators of www.YiffStar.com's YiffChat. We're having
> server issues and, at the moment, have moved YiffChat to furnet. We'd
> like to register the channel to avoid any issues from malacious users,
> if possible.
> Description: (Temporary) Home of http://www.YiffStar.com's YiffChat.
> Discuss Yiffing, Stories, or Furries in general.
I want to launch an objection to this channel as I find that its
slated content is offensive to me. The description, which can be viewed
by anyone on the network has the word "Yiffing" in it, which I find to be
highly offensive and morally wrong. Please exercise your self-appointed
powers of internet censorship and halt the registration of this channel.
Something needs to be done about all of these channels that have the Y
word in them. :[[[
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:51:11 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Sat, 17 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:22:48 -0500 (EST)
> From: Scott 'Simba' G <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
> Subject: Re: Channel Registration
>
> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004, Gauss Jordan wrote:
>
> > I'm one of the moderators of www.YiffStar.com's YiffChat. We're having
> > server issues and, at the moment, have moved YiffChat to furnet. We'd
> > like to register the channel to avoid any issues from malacious users,
> > if possible.
> > Description: (Temporary) Home of http://www.YiffStar.com's YiffChat.
> > Discuss Yiffing, Stories, or Furries in general.
>
> I want to launch an objection to this channel as I find that its
> slated content is offensive to me. The description, which can be viewed
> by anyone on the network has the word "Yiffing" in it, which I find to be
> highly offensive and morally wrong. Please exercise your self-appointed
> powers of Internet censorship and halt the registration of this channel.
> Something needs to be done about all of these channels that have the Y
> word in them. :[[[
Apart from the fact that 'Yiff' does not always have to mean explicit sexual
contact, it is a readily accepted word within the fandom and has yet to be
classified as an obscene word over any broadcast medium by any country's
telecommunication or television broadcast authority.
It is safe to assume that the content of the channel could be explicit in
nature, and it would be nice if they noted it was for mature audiences only.
Considering the source of this objection is from a known trouble-maker and
objected purely on the grounds to supposedly prove a point on what he is
saying about censorship I would be disinclined to consider this a valid
complaint.
If you can provide any pointers as to where the content of this topic would in
any way violate public decency laws, incite hate crimes, violate
telecommunications acts or in any other way cause wide-spread public
dissension then let us know.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:37:41 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: FW: Re: #AryanFurs
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> I disagree with the statement made by Simba since this isn't EFNet,
> DALnet or Undernet - if people want an unmoderated forum where they
> can have their channels full of abuse etc then so be it.
What's abusive? Are they flooding the servers or exploiting holes in
their security? No, they're not. They're chatting just like everyone
else. Their content seems to be a bit different than most others on this
network, but it's a refreshing change from the monotony, that's for
sure. Either way, their channel content is not abusive.
> We don't allow File Servers on here because of that reason. The
> channels mentioned by Simba in this discussion involve elements of
> role-play and social commentary but do not actively distribute such
> material. Aryanfurs is likely in the same category; however unlike
> all the other channels mentioned here - they deliberately voice rather
> unsavory opinions in their TOPIC header. The rest at least try to
> keep a mature TOPIC header.
File servers can actually be linked directly to monetary damages to
people. Text on an obscure Internet Relay Chat channel, especially posted
for parody and absurdity, does not, regardless of what the text is.
These are two completely unrelated issues. One causes actual damages, the
other does not and is only being debated merely because the opinion of a
vocal minority that chooses not to laugh at absurdity.
If you're going to look at "letter of the law", let me produce parts
of a document entitled, "International Mechanisms for Promoting Freedom of
Expression JOINT STATEMENT on Racism and the Media by the UN Special
Rapporteur on Freedom of Opinion and Expression, the OSCE Representative
on Freedom of the Media and the OAS Special Rapporteur on Freedom of
Expression", dated 27 February 2001.
( http://www.osce.org/documents/rfm/2002/02/194_en.pdf )
In particular, these quotations relating to our debate:
"no one should be penalized for the dissemination of "hate
speech" unless it has been shown that they did so with
the intention of inciting discrimination, hostility or
violence;"
While some of the statements made by topics or discussion in #aryanfurs
seem to promote or "incite" discrimination, hostility or violence, the
actions carried through by them in real life or on IRC do not show that
they are ACTUALLY discriminating, being hostile or physically violent.
There are no actual plans of causing violent harm to persons or property,
nor actual hostility toward others. They're merely using them as a vessel
to laugh at how completely absurd their own statements are, as well as an
attention-getting mechanism. Most laws on this utilize a "good faith"
clause which defines the differences in intent behind such statements.
If someone were to join the channel and openly and seriously agree with
their statements, they would get laughed out of the channel and called
racist.
"the right of journalists to decide how best to communicate
information and ideas to the public should be respected,
particularly when they are reporting on racism and
intolerance;"
The #aryanfurs residents are asking that their right to decide how best to
communicate information and ideas to the public be respected. (Yes, this
is a loose comparison)
These standards should also apply to new communications
technologies such as the Internet, which are of enormous
value in promoting the right to freedom of expression
and the free flow of information and ideas, particularly
across frontiers and at the global level. Any restrictions
on these new communications technologies should not:
limit or restrict the free flow of information and ideas
protected by the right to freedom of expression; or
enable the authorities to interfere with the work of,
or intimidate, human rights defenders.
It could be said that the folks in #Aryanfurs are human rights
defenders. They're defending their right to freedom of expression, which
falls very specifically under this last statement.
> If we are here to do nothing but provide a communication medium then I
> have to ask why? Who here really wants to be hosting another forum
> destined to be filled with #!!!!!freepedosexpics or even a furryxdcc
> service full of copyrighted material from talented artists who should
> be rewarded for their work and not have it stolen from them.
If you would like me to research and provide specific documents
regarding copyright laws and why this type of behavior would not be
allowed, give me some time. I could also present portions of actual legal
proceedings which have been executed and judged in favor of the musicians
and artists, or more specifically the companies responsible for their
legal forms of distributions. I feel that it is unnecessary to provide
this sort of evidence and research because I believe that you all know
full well of what I am speaking. I'd also like to point out that there
are no legal proceedings which have gone any further than being laughed
out of court when it comes to governing things that are said and posted on
a live Internet chat facility. If your complaints and objections are
based in the worry that legal action may take place, I can assure you that
you have nothing to worry about. If this were the case, the
www.somethingawful.com site would have been taken down due to legal action
ages ago.
> Furnet is for the community; it shouldn't be trashed by the few
> individuals whom would use it for their own crude and rude pleasure.
A majority of the people responsible for this channel are, in fact,
part of the "furry" community. They don't like to outwardly admit it,
usually, but neither do I, to be perfectly honest. To admit involvement
in the furry community these days is to allow yourself to be lumped into a
group associated with beastiality and a myriad of other sexual deviants.
These people are pointing out what they think are flaws in the furry
community in their own, albeit immature way. #AryanFurs is specifically
pointing out the general flaw that seems to follow any fanatic group:
Over-reactions and over-sensitivities. It's their own way of dealing with
the fans who tend to be way too up-tight and irrationally sensitive and
over-protective. You and anyone else who is complaining about them are
falling squarely onto their point. It could be argued that they're trying
to change the views and opinions of others, but they're not doing it in an
authoritative, intimidational way. They're doing it by poking fun at how
absurd the general reactions tend to be.
They want you to react with over-sensitivity and you're doing
it. What upsets you the most is that you're falling prey to it and are
being asked by a fellow administrator to not do anything about it.
> I think a policy of clean TOPICs and no File servers is not that much
> to ask for. I am all for free speech but leaves keep it in the
> channels and not on the front door.
What's the difference? Free speech is free speech. ALSO, stop
bringing up the issue of file servers. That's not even a part of this
discussion.
> The community as a whole is full of vibrant individuals from all walks
> of life, all age groups, races, gender and sexuality. I think having
> topics that cater to be accessible to all those groups is not asking
> too much.
There are topics that cater to be accessible to all those groups.
You ask and you are receiving.
> I for one would like to know I could have my sister use furnet without
> having to explain to her why COONS and NIGGERS is part of the list of
> words assaulting her when she brings up the channel list.
You could explain it to her in the same way that I am explaining it
to you now and in the same way that I explained it to BlakDrgn. "We're
not responsible for governing it."
> It is the 21st century. Lets leave the hate crimes back in the past
> where they belong.
I agree. Let's leave the hate "crimes" back in the past where they
belong. We aren't talking about crimes here, though. We're talking about
poking fun and laughing at absurdity.
> The last line of this particular email sent by Simba states:
> "...unfortunately, there's nothing that we can do about it."
> There is nothing we can't do. There are only things that we won't do
> or that are impractical to achieve. Lets not make keeping a furnet
> free of such racial abuses one of those things we choose not to
> action.
And I say lets just let it go and ignore it. Most likely, it'll go
away when they get bored with it anyway.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:42:41 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> Considering the source of this objection is from a known trouble-maker
> and objected purely on the grounds to supposedly prove a point on what
> he is saying about censorship I would be disinclined to consider this
> a valid complaint.
I resent the remark about being a "known trouble-maker". I am merely
a human rights defender. If that's being "trouble-making", you need to
grow a few more brain cells and rub them together.
What you are correct in, however, is the fact that my statement was
made in attempt to prove or push a point already being discussed. I also
agree in that my objection should not be taken seriously and that the
channel should go through the normal registration process.
> If you can provide any pointers as to where the content of this topic
> would in any way violate public decency laws, incite hate crimes,
> violate telecommunications acts or in any other way cause wide-spread
> public dissension then let us know.
I can't provide any pointers for such. As such, you can also not
provide pointers to where #aryanfurs are actually doing those things
either.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:31:37 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> > Considering the source of this objection is from a known trouble-maker
> > and objected purely on the grounds to supposedly prove a point on what
> > he is saying about censorship I would be disinclined to consider this
> > a valid complaint.
>
> I resent the remark about being a "known trouble-maker". I am merely
> a human rights defender. If that's being "trouble-making", you need to
> grow a few more brain cells and rub them together.
Would you mind keeping this to a professional level Simba? The most I have
ever called you has been a trouble maker; validated in which you have
acknowledged that you are indeed trying to instigate particular situations in
the aid of proving your points.
Perhaps my wording was excessive but I certainly do not keep assaulting you
with comments like 'dramawhore' or insinuating that I am of low intelligence.
In developmental psychology the act of "name calling" is traditionally used by
people who are dealing with unfamiliar material that has violated what they
consider their personal space. A sense of self-preservation or fear of a new
potential threat will cause the individual to distance themselves from the new
stimuli. The act of verbal disassociation through events such as mockery or
name calling are used to break down their own personal barriers and at the
same time create a sense of dominance upon the situation. Just noting a
clinical observation.
> What you are correct in, however, is the fact that my statement was
> made in attempt to prove or push a point already being discussed. I also
> agree in that my objection should not be taken seriously and that the
> channel should go through the normal registration process.
Perhaps it could have been better word to be shown to be a demonstration of
what you were discussing however the point has been made well and thank you
for clarifying what your intentions were.
> > If you can provide any pointers as to where the content of this topic
> > would in any way violate public decency laws, incite hate crimes,
> > violate telecommunications acts or in any other way cause wide-spread
> > public dissension then let us know.
>
> I can't provide any pointers for such. As such, you can also not
> provide pointers to where #aryanfurs are actually doing those things
> either.
Actually I have on many occasions. I have previously cited UN treaty much
like you have cited similar material in your rebuttal. I could have
similarly quoted Australian Federal and State Law, German Law or US Federal
Law however I was going for a more globally reaching set of regulations.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:26:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> Would you mind keeping this to a professional level Simba? The most I
> have ever called you has been a trouble maker; validated in which you
> have acknowledged that you are indeed trying to instigate particular
> situations in the aid of proving your points.
Ooh-ho-ho! Hypocrasy at its finest, I see (to re-quote a jab you
made). If it's going to get down to, "Well, he didn't show
professionalism in this e-mail, so that means his points are completly
invalidated," or whatever, I'd like to quote just a few lines from an
e-mail you sent to this very same list which were FULL of personal jabs.
"I am assuming manners is something you are not familiar with."
"amongst a channel of spammers, trolls and other low-life scum."
"Responsibility; I know it's a hard word for you to understand since you
never show it."
"not unduly hampered by irresponsible hoodlums who are here solely to
disrupt the network."
"full of nothing but problem people who use it to conspire for illicit
activity across the entire network."
"Unlike you I imagine I have some sense of morality"
"You have not lifted one finger to help the users of this network."
"You have no respect for your fellow IRCOPs or anyone else."
"You take no responsibility for the very channel you sit in constantly;"
"and that is only to watch and derive some form of perverse pleasure out
of the drama that unfolds."
"But I would not be poking sticks in someone else's backyard when there is
still flies swarming over the filth in your own."
When I got that e-mail, I could have very easily turned around and
inflammatorily jabbed you in the same way you were jabbing me. I didn't,
though (much), because I DO have my own sense of professionalism and
morality. So, if we're keeping score on personal jabs or name-calling in
general (toward me or the people I choose to hang out with) made on this
list, you have like 10 and I have 2.
> Perhaps my wording was excessive but I certainly do not keep
> assaulting you with comments like 'dramawhore' or insinuating that I
> am of low intelligence.
Uhhh, not so much. First off, I never called you a "dramawhore" on
this list. THAT comment was made in #SAFurs where EVERYONE is making fun
of you. They make fun of you, they make fun of me, they make fun of
themselves, and they make fun of everyone else. It's just part and parcel
to the channel. The "also rapist" comment on the same line as
"dramawhore" was also to point out just how completely absurd my statement
was in the first place. It was not meant to be taken seriously as I
didn't mean it seriously. "Insinuating that you are of low intelligence"
was just me throwing back some of the personal jabs you were throwing at
me. For that retaliation, I'm sorry. I should just sit by and let 'em
bounce off and ignore them.
> In developmental psychology the act of "name calling" is traditionally
> used by people who are dealing with unfamiliar material that has
> violated what they consider their personal space. A sense of
> self-preservation or fear of a new potential threat will cause the
> individual to distance themselves from the new stimuli. The act of
> verbal disassociation through events such as mockery or name calling
> are used to break down their own personal barriers and at the same
> time create a sense of dominance upon the situation. Just noting a
> clinical observation.
Hmm, yes. Same to you. :)
> Perhaps it could have been better word to be shown to be a
> demonstration of what you were discussing however the point has been
> made well and thank you for clarifying what your intentions were.
You're welcome.
> Actually I have on many occasions. I have previously cited UN treaty
> much like you have cited similar material in your rebuttal. I could
> have similarly quoted Australian Federal and State Law, German Law or
> US Federal Law however I was going for a more globally reaching set of
> regulations.
Yes, you have tried to on many occasions, but I've been able to bring
up a counter-argument each time. I should have said, "valid pointers"
instead of just "pointers" in my last e-mail. Also, I used the word
"actually", in the context, "actually violate public decency laws, incite
hate crimes, violate telecommunications acts or in any other way cause
wide-spread public dissension." I was pointing out that so far,
#Aryanfurs is not "actually" doing any of those things, by the examples
you've given or otherwise.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:56:02 +0100
From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #AryanFurs
On Sunday, Jan 18 2004 at 02:43:22 +1000, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> Whilst it may be a funny on some level; this is merely only one of an example
> of topics aryanfurs has used over the months. These others come to mind:
>
> KILL THE JEWS
>
> ____+____ ALL HAIL OUR FEARLESS WHITEFURRED LEADER! ADOLF HITLER! HEIL
> HITLER! www.stormfront.org WHITE POWER ____+____
>
> AUSCHWITZ. THE MEANING OF PAIN. THE WAY THAT WE WANT YOU TO DIE. | NO RACCOONS
> ALLOWED
>
> I do not think any of these were meant to be taken in a funny context.
I agree.
> Of course I realize these are a bunch of trolls. My question is - do we just
> let them keep pushing further and see else what they can get away with or do
> we actually do something about them?
Actually, according to German laws, after being notified of illegal contents
in a service offered by me, I have the legal obligation to stop them if I
can do it with a reasonable effort (TDG §5 (2)).
Hurga
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:29:00 +0100
From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: FW: Re: #AryanFurs
On Sunday, Jan 18 2004 at 03:37:41 -0500, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> What's abusive? Are they flooding the servers or exploiting holes in
> their security?
According to my dictionary, "abusive" has something to do with "insulting",
too.
> File servers can actually be linked directly to monetary damages to
> people.
Actually I don't see that. e.g. I would never have given Hardiman something
like $300 if I hadn't gotten hold of illegal scans of a Skunkworks portfolio.
> Text on an obscure Internet Relay Chat channel, especially posted
> for parody and absurdity, does not, regardless of what the text is.
I don't see the parody, there have been complaints, I don't really feel
like analyzing the channel and the topics have been clearly enough in
violation of German laws 130 and 130a StGB. German courts are a bit
sensitve about topics like that (guess why), parody rarely is a valid
excuse with them and in any case I don't feel like I want to be a test
case here.
Hurga
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:19:04 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> Ooh-ho-ho! Hypocrasy at its finest, I see (to re-quote a jab you
> made). If it's going to get down to, "Well, he didn't show
> professionalism in this e-mail, so that means his points are completely
> invalidated," or whatever, I'd like to quote just a few lines from an
> e-mail you sent to this very same list which were FULL of personal jabs.
>
> "I am assuming manners is something you are not familiar with."
Made from observations in how you have previously treated me.
> "amongst a channel of spammers, trolls and other low-life scum."
This is a statement about #safurs in general.
> "Responsibility; I know it's a hard word for you to understand since you
> never show it."
This was due to the inaction in terms of #safurs and #aryanfurs.
> "not unduly hampered by irresponsible hoodlums who are here solely to
> disrupt the network."
A statement about #safurs.
> "full of nothing but problem people who use it to conspire for illicit
> activity across the entire network."
A statement about #safurs.
> "Unlike you I imagine I have some sense of morality"
> "You have not lifted one finger to help the users of this network."
Once again this was a statement regarding the lack of responsibly from
#safurs.
> "You have no respect for your fellow IRCOPs or anyone else."
Based on what you have called me in #safurs.
> "You take no responsibility for the very channel you sit in constantly;"
Based on the inaction for #safurs and #aryanfurs.
> "and that is only to watch and derive some form of perverse pleasure out
> of the drama that unfolds."
Based on previous observations from #safurs.
> "But I would not be poking sticks in someone else's backyard when there is
> still flies swarming over the filth in your own."
... definitely name calling on my part. My apologies.
> > Perhaps my wording was excessive but I certainly do not keep
> > assaulting you with comments like 'dramawhore' or insinuating that I
> > am of low intelligence.
>
> Uhhh, not so much. First off, I never called you a "dramawhore" on
> this list. THAT comment was made in #SAFurs where EVERYONE is making fun
> of you. They make fun of you, they make fun of me, they make fun of
And yet you seem to take particular delight in calling me quite a few things
in that channel. Once again this has to go towards respect towards fellow
IRCOPs. You could have just as easily not said a word.
My role whilst in that channel was clear, I was monitoring for trolling
activity which was emanating from that channel. I did not interact with the
locals. The fact you chose to use the opportunity to make calls regarding my
character over the months has after all lead to this lower opinion of you
based on observation.
> > In developmental psychology the act of "name calling" is traditionally
> > used by people who are dealing with unfamiliar material that has violated
> > what they consider their personal space. A sense of self-preservation or
> > fear of a new potential threat will cause the individual to distance
> > themselves from the new stimuli. The act of verbal disassociation through
> > events such as mockery or name calling are used to break down their own
> > personal barriers and at the same time create a sense of dominance upon
> > the situation. Just noting a clinical observation.
>
> Hmm, yes. Same to you. :)
Not quite; but point conceded (My is reactionary based on previous
material). Translation: "But Ma - he started it!" ;)
I will admit to quite a lot of negative reaction built up from the less then
polite things you have previously called me in public channels.
> Yes, you have tried to on many occasions, but I've been able to bring
> up a counter-argument each time. I should have said, "valid pointers"
> instead of just "pointers" in my last e-mail. Also, I used the word
> "actually", in the context, "actually violate public decency laws, incite
> hate crimes, violate telecommunications acts or in any other way cause
> wide-spread public dissension." I was pointing out that so far,
> #Aryanfurs is not "actually" doing any of those things, by the examples
> you've given or otherwise.
Here in lies the problem, my points are valid. Ive had this discussion quite
a few times with legal representation because of other things I also manage
online. In part the reason why I host overseas is due to some of the
particular local federal regulations that whilst have yet to be proven in
court are still worded in such a way as to imply a implicit set of
responsibilities in terms of a carriage service provider (anything which is
used as a medium for communication - which has not been defined to
specifically be just the actual hardware of the technology but is broad
enough to include protocols as well).
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:33:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #AryanFurs
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Hanno Foest wrote:
> > I do not think any of these were meant to be taken in a funny context.
> I agree.
I disagree. It's damn funny, and all of your reactions are
priceless.
> Actually, according to German laws, after being notified of illegal
> contents in a service offered by me, I have the legal obligation to
> stop them if I can do it with a reasonable effort (TDG §5 (2)).
Well that sucks. I have some letters to write, then. I want to know
for sure if this falls under that context. Do you know if there is a
standard way of contacting the German government for asking questions in a
hypothetical manner? I'd like to make some contacts regarding this and
see how it applies to our little debate. I'll be interesting to see if
they just laugh it off and tell me to bugger off or if they'd take it as
seriously as you all do. At this point, I'm just trying to understand
international law and how they could possibly take something this absurd
so seriously.
I have a few friends who have some contacts with some good american
lawyers as well, should I need to fall back on asking them those
questions.
BTW, I believe "illegal documents" in your context mean actual,
detailed instructions on how to convene and follow through with acts of
harm toward the people being represented. There is no actual intent for
the members of #Aryanfurs to carry through with anything that they're
putting in their topics or in the discussional content of the channel. It
is all meant to be just as absurd as it sounds and to be laughed at,
regardless of how you are viewing it.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:55:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> > "I am assuming manners is something you are not familiar with."
> Made from observations in how you have previously treated me.
OIC Used in an abrasive and inflammatory manner, though,
nonetheless.
> > "amongst a channel of spammers, trolls and other low-life scum."
> This is a statement about #safurs in general.
It's still an act of "name-calling" on this list, regadless of whom
it's directed toward.
> > "Responsibility; I know it's a hard word for you to understand since
> > you never show it."
> This was due to the inaction in terms of #safurs and #aryanfurs.
Oh, so you get to use words like "never" when only referring to
individual, specific actions. Either way, it was abrasive and
inflammatory.
> > "not unduly hampered by irresponsible hoodlums who are here solely to
> > disrupt the network."
> A statement about #safurs.
Still name-calling on this list.
> > "full of nothing but problem people who use it to conspire for illicit
> > activity across the entire network."
> A statement about #safurs.
Still inflammatory and abrasive toward the folks whom I hang out
with.
> > "Unlike you I imagine I have some sense of morality"
> > "You have not lifted one finger to help the users of this network."
> Once again this was a statement regarding the lack of responsibly from
> #safurs.
Still abrasive and inflammatory as well as using absolute terms to
indicate non-absolute incidents.
> > "You have no respect for your fellow IRCOPs or anyone else."
> Based on what you have called me in #safurs.
Again, absolute terms. I have no respect for you, Snowpony, not
"IRCOPs", plural. Again abrasive and inflammatory.
> > "You take no responsibility for the very channel you sit in constantly;"
> Based on the inaction for #safurs and #aryanfurs.
Again absolute terms used in abrasive and inflammatory verbage.
> > "and that is only to watch and derive some form of perverse pleasure out
> > of the drama that unfolds."
> Based on previous observations from #safurs.
While it may be somewhat true, still abrasive and inflammatory.
> > "But I would not be poking sticks in someone else's backyard when there is
> > still flies swarming over the filth in your own."
> ... definitely name calling on my part. My apologies.
Sweet.
> And yet you seem to take particular delight in calling me quite a few
> things in that channel. Once again this has to go towards respect
> towards fellow IRCOPs. You could have just as easily not said a word.
I could have said nothing, but it wouldn't have been funny.
> My role whilst in that channel was clear, I was monitoring for
> trolling activity which was emanating from that channel. I did not
> interact with the locals. The fact you chose to use the opportunity
> to make calls regarding my character over the months has after all
> lead to this lower opinion of you based on observation.
That's fine.
> Not quite; but point conceded (My is reactionary based on previous
> material). Translation: "But Ma - he started it!" ;)
As far as the admin mailing list is concerned (the forum which this
spin-off discussion is acted out), it was the other way around. The
abrasive and inflammatory remarks came from you first.
> I will admit to quite a lot of negative reaction built up from the
> less then polite things you have previously called me in public
> channels.
At the time they were said, I didn't really believe them, nor were
they meant to be taken seriously. However, based on your highly defensive
reactions to them, maybe there is some truth to them after all.
> Here in lies the problem, my points are valid. Ive had this
> discussion quite a few times with legal representation because of
> other things I also manage online. In part the reason why I host
> overseas is due to some of the particular local federal regulations
> that whilst have yet to be proven in court are still worded in such a
> way as to imply a implicit set of responsibilities in terms of a
> carriage service provider (anything which is used as a medium for
> communication - which has not been defined to specifically be just the
> actual hardware of the technology but is broad enough to include
> protocols as well).
So, in other words, to have a perfect world where rights of freedom
of expression are not hindered or governed over, all of the admins and
hosts should be inside of the US. I'm game for that. ( No offense, Hurga
) I wonder if that's why EFNet split up to US vs. everywhere else back in
the day.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 02:26:53 +0100
From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #AryanFurs
On Sunday, Jan 18 2004 at 18:33:25 -0500, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> I disagree. It's damn funny, and all of your reactions are
> priceless.
§ 130 StGB convictions are not really funny and have happened before.
> > Actually, according to German laws, after being notified of illegal
> > contents in a service offered by me, I have the legal obligation to
> > stop them if I can do it with a reasonable effort (TDG §5 (2)).
>
> Well that sucks. I have some letters to write, then. I want to know
> for sure if this falls under that context.
That's hard to find out, since it's the courts who decide. And since these
computer related laws are rather new, there's little precedence and
conflicting decisions. The only way to be sure for a specific case would
be to force a judgement by reporting yourself to the authorities ("negative
Feststellungsklage").
> At this point, I'm just trying to understand
> international law and how they could possibly take something this absurd
> so seriously.
It has to do with German history. Did you know that computer games with
swastikas *somewhere* in the designs usually get confiscated over here?
The game companies produce special versions with the swastikas edited
out for the German market.
> BTW, I believe "illegal documents"
Illegal contents.
> in your context mean actual,
> detailed instructions on how to convene and follow through with acts of
> harm toward the people being represented.
No. The term in the law is deliberately fuzzy. For example, it means the
use of the swastika when it isn't just for historic documentation
purposes - see above. Remembering some police visits at the web hosting
company I once did conulting work for, I'm quite sure hate speech and
racist insults would be covered, too. (They had search warrants to find out
the name and address of the owner of the web page.)
> There is no actual intent for
> the members of #Aryanfurs to carry through with anything that they're
> putting in their topics or in the discussional content of the channel.
I'm not interested in having to explain that to a judge, especially since
I don't *know* what their intentions might be.
Please take your trolling buddies elsewhere.
IANAL, but this stuff has been covered in great detail in German computer
related publications, you just need to know your rights and duties if
you run a web server, and I'm interested in it anyway.
- Hurga
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:51:33 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> > > "You have no respect for your fellow IRCOPs or anyone else."
> > Based on what you have called me in #safurs.
>
> Again, absolute terms. I have no respect for you, Snowpony, not
> "IRCOPs", plural. Again abrasive and inflammatory.
I would question that considering how you are considering this entire matter
"funny" despite everyone else's concern over the legality of what you are
encouraging (as you have noted further down in this reply)...
> > And yet you seem to take particular delight in calling me quite a few
> > things in that channel. Once again this has to go towards respect
> > towards fellow IRCOPs. You could have just as easily not said a word.
>
> I could have said nothing, but it wouldn't have been funny.
...here.
> > I will admit to quite a lot of negative reaction built up from the
> > less then polite things you have previously called me in public
> > channels.
>
> At the time they were said, I didn't really believe them, nor were
> they meant to be taken seriously. However, based on your highly defensive
> reactions to them, maybe there is some truth to them after all.
I do tend to react badly to things which are not true or correct. Being
abused/abusing others for the apparent fun of it is not what I would
personally consider a fun pastime nor was how I was raised and would consider
a mode of conduct in polite society.
> > Here in lies the problem, my points are valid. Ive had this
> > discussion quite a few times with legal representation because of
> > other things I also manage online. In part the reason why I host
> > overseas is due to some of the particular local federal regulations
> > that whilst have yet to be proven in court are still worded in such a
> > way as to imply a implicit set of responsibilities in terms of a
> > carriage service provider (anything which is used as a medium for
> > communication - which has not been defined to specifically be just the
> > actual hardware of the technology but is broad enough to include
> > protocols as well).
>
> So, in other words, to have a perfect world where rights of freedom
> of expression are not hindered or governed over, all of the admins and
> hosts should be inside of the US. I'm game for that. ( No offense, Hurga
> ) I wonder if that's why EFNet split up to US vs. everywhere else back in
> the day.
No. Because the US also has laws which cover these areas. It was a decision
that made sense for me due to how the telecommunications act was worded in
Australia (granted the reasons I initially moved to US servers has changed due
to amendments in the act however there is still enough greyness due to lack of
an established precedent in court for me to leave my servers outside of
Australia. The other thing is that it's a whole lot cheaper).
In the end I feel we owe fellow IRCOPs the right to do what we can to limit
our legal liability. Whilst you may have a personal agenda to encourage the
removal of censorship which is admirable; I feel that we have a responsibility
to conduct the administration of the network to support the entire community
and try to make it a place that is accessible by all (accessible in terms of
suitable for the general audience or appropriately rated as opposed to
connectivity).
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:16:24 +0100
From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Channel Registration
On Sunday, Jan 18 2004 at 18:55:20 -0500, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> So, in other words, to have a perfect world where rights of freedom
> of expression are not hindered or governed over, all of the admins and
> hosts should be inside of the US.
Last time I checked there were much severe free speech issues in the US
than in Germany. I guess you've heard of the DMCA...
Hurga
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:01:37 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: #aryanfurs channel topic
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Currently it's:
15:00:04 [furnet] -!- Channel Users Name
15:00:04 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs 7 no black people and no jews
15:00:04 [furnet] -!- End of /LIST
What is going to be our final decision on this channel and it's topics?
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://quantumlab.net/pine_privacy_guard/
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:25:19 +0100
From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
On Saturday, Jan 24 2004 at 15:01:37 +1000, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> What is going to be our final decision on this channel and it's topics?
Take the channel user list and AKILL them all.
- Hurga
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 17:35:59 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Hanno Foest wrote:
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:25:19 +0100
> From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
> Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
>
> On Saturday, Jan 24 2004 at 15:01:37 +1000, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
>
> > What is going to be our final decision on this channel and it's topics?
>
> Take the channel user list and AKILL them all.
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs SabretoothRoar H 1
Sabretooth@hsdbrg69-11-25-122.sasknet.sk.ca [allan kent hardcastle]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs Lemur H% 1
Blue-9@adsl-68-73-169-66.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [Cool Like Fonzie]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs bobby H%@ 1
~demon@HSE-Ottawa-ppp163963.sympatico.ca [Robert Holiday]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs goldenzoeihrn H 1
~jim@130-127-114-5.cope.resnet.clemson.edu [clemrage]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs LJuanBobo H@ 1
j@tnt13a-228.chcg3.il.corecomm.net [bobo]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs Sul-afk H%@ 1
zyklon-b@ACC13A1C.ipt.aol.com [the wind that shakes the barley]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs Rico H%@ 0
~Rico@63-231-73-53.dnvr.qwest.net [Rico]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs weasel H@ 2
weasel@h-68-165-156-178.CHCGILGM.covad.net [weasel]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs Aotommo H@ 1
~h@66.188.58.208.bay.mi.chartermi.net [h]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs verix H@ 0
taters@adsl-63-203-102-165.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [sup]
17:33:34 [furnet] -!- #aryanfurs Chiffy H@ 1
~foxpounce@adsl-63-207-101-198.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [q]
Current channel list just for reference. I don't have any qualms doing this
considering two thirds of this particular list are #safurs regulars. However
are there any objections before I start?
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:06:30 +0100
From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
On Saturday, Jan 24 2004 at 17:35:59 +1000, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
[...]
> Current channel list just for reference. I don't have any qualms doing this
> considering two thirds of this particular list are #safurs regulars. However
> are there any objections before I start?
I don't know if they've been sufficiently warned, I haven't been there.
Maybe issue one last warning and start 10 minutes later.
Need to go, emergency at work, that's why I'm awake at all...
- Hurga
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:24:11 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Hanno Foest wrote:
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:06:30 +0100
> From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
> Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
>
> On Saturday, Jan 24 2004 at 17:35:59 +1000, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
>
> [...]
> > Current channel list just for reference. I don't have any qualms doing this
> > considering two thirds of this particular list are #safurs regulars. However
> > are there any objections before I start?
>
> I don't know if they've been sufficiently warned, I haven't been there.
> Maybe issue one last warning and start 10 minutes later.
Okay will do.
> Need to go, emergency at work, that's why I'm awake at all...
Best of luck with your work problem; hope it's not too bad.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Comment: For info see http://quantumlab.net/pine_privacy_guard/
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:28:38 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:24:11 +1000 (EST)
> From: Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
> To: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
> Cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
> Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Hanno Foest wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:06:30 +0100
> > From: Hanno Foest <[address redacted]@tigress.com>
> > To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
> > Subject: Re: #aryanfurs channel topic
> >
> > On Saturday, Jan 24 2004 at 17:35:59 +1000, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> > > Current channel list just for reference. I don't have any qualms doing this
> > > considering two thirds of this particular list are #safurs regulars. However
> > > are there any objections before I start?
> >
> > I don't know if they've been sufficiently warned, I haven't been there.
> > Maybe issue one last warning and start 10 minutes later.
>
> Okay will do.
>
> > Need to go, emergency at work, that's why I'm awake at all...
>
> Best of luck with your work problem; hope it's not too bad.
On a side note - details on the owner of the channel:
18:27:55 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Information for channel
#aryanfurs:
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Founder: simba
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Description: All flames can
be directed to ircadmin@pridelands.org
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Registered: Jan 13 15:48:42
2004 PST
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Last used: Jan 23 23:16:23
2004 PST
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Last topic: no black people
and no jews
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Topic set by: Simba
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Ban type: 1
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Options: Topic Retention,
Peace, Secure Founder, Signed kicks, Topic
Lock
18:27:56 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Mode lock: +nrt
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:42:24 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Removal of #aryanfurs complete - Log attached.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
- --- Log opened Sat Jan 24 18:24:17 2004
18:24:17-!- Snowpony [Snowpony@FurNet] has joined #aryanfurs
18:24:17-!- Topic for #aryanfurs: no black people and no jews
18:24:17-!- Topic set by Simba [] [Wed Jan 21 16:07:36 2004]
18:24:17[Users #aryanfurs]
18:24:17[@Aotommo] [@Rico ] [@verix ] [@ybboB ] [ Snowpony]
18:24:17[@Chiffy ] [@Sul-afk] [@weasel] [ Lemur|NS]
18:24:17-!- Irssi: #aryanfurs: Total of 9 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
18:24:18-!- Channel #aryanfurs created Wed Jan 14 09:39:23 2004
18:24:19-!- Irssi: Join to #aryanfurs was synced in 2 secs
18:24:37< Snowpony> Hello people. The topic needs to be changed right now thank you.
18:24:44-!- Sul-afk is now known as Sulaco
18:24:45<@Sulaco> wat
18:24:55-!- Sulaco changed the topic of #aryanfurs to: no ponies
18:24:55< Snowpony> You heard me.
18:24:56-!- ChanServ changed the topic of #aryanfurs to: no black people and no jews
18:25:04< Snowpony> I see.
18:25:06<@Sulaco> See?
18:25:14<@Sulaco> >:Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:25:16<@Sulaco> !
18:25:38< Snowpony> Well I am here to advise you that if you do not change this channel topic I will be forced to take measures. You have 10 minutes.
18:26:16<@Sulaco> Simba set the chanserv thingy, I believe.
18:26:25< Snowpony> You have 9 minutes now.
18:26:40<@Sulaco> Hold yer hosses!
18:27:09<@Aotommo> what
18:27:10<@Aotommo> snowpony
18:27:20<@Sulaco> what
18:27:21<@Aotommo> I'm pretty sure the ONLY person who can change the topic is simba.
18:27:26<@Aotommo> so bug him, not us.
18:27:31<@Aotommo> I may be wrong, though.
18:27:37<@Aotommo> I'll try changing it.
18:27:39< Snowpony> Then I would suggest vacating this channel.
18:27:42-!- Aotommo changed the topic of #aryanfurs to: butt
18:27:42-!- ChanServ changed the topic of #aryanfurs to: no black people and no jews
18:27:53<@Aotommo> bwhy
18:27:56<@Aotommo> *why
18:28:03-!- ybboB changed the topic of #aryanfurs to: f
18:28:03-!- ChanServ changed the topic of #aryanfurs to: no black people and no jews
18:28:06<@ybboB> hm
18:28:24<@Aotommo> You aren't suggesting that you'd akill me because I CAN'T change the topic
18:28:39-!- Chiffy changed the topic of #aryanfurs to: black people and jews welcome :))))))))))
18:28:39-!- ChanServ changed the topic of #aryanfurs to: no black people and no jews
18:28:41-!- ybboB is now known as bobby
18:29:06< Snowpony> Im suggesting anyone left in this channel in 6 minutes time is going to be removed from the network.
18:29:09<@Aotommo> check the access list, snowpony. I think you'll see that it's fairly obvious that the person you should be talking to is simba.
18:29:29<@Sulaco> Because we can't change the topic?
18:29:29<@Sulaco> That's horseshit.
18:29:35< Snowpony> Make that 5 minutes.
18:29:41<@Aotommo> Snowpony, that's really horrible ircopping.
18:29:44<@bobby> [02:19] * Topic is 'no black people and no jews'
18:29:45<@bobby> [02:19] * Set by Simba on Wed Jan 21 01:07:36
18:29:47<@Aotommo> We're blameless.
18:29:52<@bobby> Go fuck yourself Snowpony.
18:29:54< Snowpony> This channel is being closed down.
18:30:03<@Aotommo> Why?
18:30:13<@Aotommo> I think we at least deserve a reason.
18:30:20<@Sulaco> So we can't have a channel expressing our SUPERIOR NORSE WOLF HERITAGE but people can have channels advocating/tolerating animal abuse?
18:30:27< Snowpony> For offensive topics that breach several hate crime laws in multiple countries.
18:30:50<@bobby> Better remove #zoo too, then, since its content breaks laws in multiple countries too, idiot.
18:30:51< Snowpony> This has been decided by Furnet Administration.
18:30:51<@Aotommo> how does "no black people and no jews" = hate crime
18:30:57<@bobby> Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
18:31:16<@Aotommo> Did furnet administration also say "hey, akill everybody who is in the channel too please"
18:31:22< Snowpony> Actually yes Aotommo.
18:31:35<@Aotommo> Suuuuuuure.
18:31:37< Snowpony> You have 4 minutes.
18:31:39<@bobby> You gonna akill Simba too?
18:32:02<@Aotommo> hmm
18:32:02<@Sulaco> Don't akill Simba! He is the only negroid fur we love.
18:32:09<@Sulaco> Lions are a-okay with us!
18:32:13<@Aotommo> Well, I think I'm going to do a favor for people in here who aren't active
18:32:17<@Chiffy> hate crime against lions :o
18:32:20-!- mode/#aryanfurs [+i] by Aotommo
18:32:22-!- Rico was kicked from #aryanfurs by Aotommo [rico]
18:32:26<@Chiffy> yeah
18:32:31<@Sulaco> Because, you see, their lineage can be traced back to Europe, and thus they are superior.
18:32:34<@Chiffy> is what I was thinking aotommo
18:32:34-!- Lemur|NS was kicked from #aryanfurs by Aotommo [lemur|Ns]
18:32:35-!- verix was kicked from #aryanfurs by Aotommo [verix]
18:32:40-!- weasel was kicked from #aryanfurs by Aotommo [weasel]
18:32:43-!- Chiffy was kicked from #aryanfurs by Chiffy [Chiffy]
18:32:48[Users #aryanfurs]
18:32:48[@Aotommo] [@bobby] [@Sulaco] [ Snowpony]
18:32:48-!- Irssi: #aryanfurs: Total of 4 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal]
18:32:49 * Sulaco bites the gun barrel
18:33:00<@Sulaco> Mmm rrdeee!!
18:33:05<@Aotommo> lolu
18:33:10<@Aotommo> don't get akilled dooder
18:33:27<@Sulaco> Bullet time!
18:33:31<@bobby> Snowpony won't answer me because I'm right.
18:33:34<@bobby> I love it.
18:33:41<@bobby> So I think I'm gonna take further action.
18:33:51<@Aotommo> bobby: truth
18:33:51< Snowpony> By all means; send in a complaint to the admin list.
18:34:01<@Aotommo> I'd help, but I honestly don't know where to begin researching.
18:34:03<@Aotommo> anyways
18:34:04<@Aotommo> bye doodz
18:34:11-!- Aotommo was kicked from #aryanfurs by Aotommo [akill everybody in #zoo please]
18:34:13<@bobby> AHahhah. How now fat cow. I don't mean that.
18:34:28<@bobby> Don't worry, you'll see soon enough.
18:34:28[Users #aryanfurs]
18:34:28[@bobby] [@Sulaco] [ Snowpony]
18:34:28-!- Irssi: #aryanfurs: Total of 3 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal]
18:34:32-!- bobby was kicked from #ARYANFURS by bobby [g]
18:34:32<@Sulaco> Well bobb,y looks like it's just you and me. Shall I do us the honors? Or wh-.
18:34:42<@Sulaco> Dizzamn!
18:34:43<@Sulaco> Fucking laggy aol.
18:34:47< Snowpony> Bye Sulaco.
18:34:48-!- Sulaco [zyklon-b@ACC13A1C.ipt.aol.com] has left #aryanfurs [Zing!]
18:34:52[Users #aryanfurs]
18:34:52[ Snowpony]
18:34:52-!- Irssi: #aryanfurs: Total of 1 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal]
18:36:30-!- Snowpony [Snowpony@FurNet] has left #aryanfurs []
- --- Log closed Sat Jan 24 18:36:30 2004
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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=fn+H
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:17:17 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Removal of #aryanfurs complete - Log attached.
> -- Snowpony wrote:
> What is going to be our final decision on this channel and it's topics?
> -- Hurga wrote:
> Take the channel user list and AKILL them all.
-ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Channel #aryanfurs has been forbidden
by Snowpony:
-ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Removed due to racist topics
OH ASSHOLE!!! HOW THE FUCK DARE YOU?!?!?
The topic ___HAD___ been set to something without any offensive terms
in it. If someone is offended by the terms "black people" and "jews",
they need a fucking kick in the teeth to knock some sense into them. If I
EVER see you, I might kick you in the teeth just on principal of "you're
fucking stupid and can't conduct yourself using your wits alone." I
wouldn't feel bad about having a fist fight with a lady either, 'cause
everyone knows you weren't always a lady. It'd be a good ol'fashioned
brawl. BRING IT!
FUUUCK I'm so mad I can't see straight.
We have this friendly debate about the content of the channel topic.
Hurga FINALLY brings up a good point. I concede and make it so that only
I can set the topic and set it to something that DOESN'T have any remarks
about collaborating to perform illegal activities or contain offensive
terms, such as "Nigger" and "kike", and you take action ANYWAY?! CONTROL
FREAK! POWER HUNGRY! ASSHOLLLLEEEE! FUUUCKKKKK!!!!!!!!! And instead of
taking it up with ME, you go bully the people in the channel who are
powerless to make any changes and are just there having FRIENDLY CHAT.
You go there and THREATEN them with AKILLS (something which is a VERY LAST
RESORT and you use like it's water). You're insane. You're a bully.
You're the filth of the Internet. You suck. You're worthless. I hate
you. You're a fucking cunt! You're like the kids in high school who pick
on other kids and make them feel worthless. You're a cheap, lying,
no-good, rotten, far flushing, low-life, snake licking, dirt-eating,
inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless,
dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-assed, bug-eyed, stiff-legged,
spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit! What .. the .. FUCK?!
Are you CONSTANTLY on the rag, bitch, or what?
You didn't even let 24 hours go by between your question to the list
and when you took your action. Jesus fuck! That's it. I'm taking action
immediately too. I'm re-registering the channel and setting yet another
good topic which doesn't include any illegal remarks. You dont't have an
O: line on my server any more either. If I can figure out how to jupiter
yours, I'm doing it. MAYHEM! WAR! I couldn't remove you from the
services admin list for some reason. Dammit! You need to be, though,
because you can't conduct yourself in a reasonable manner toward the users
of this network. You add akills at the drop of a hat. You go and forbid
channels because of topic content. You are NOT FIT TO BE AN ADMINISTRATOR
OF ANY NETWORK AND I WANT YOU OFF OF THIS ONE!
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 10:26:25 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
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On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
[Rather large amount of abuse primarily directed at myself removed]
Here are the simple facts.
1. Hurge specifically requested the removal of that channel and to give them
10 minutes to leave - then to AKILL the ones left.
2. I performed that request because I happened to support his decision fully
which makes by my count 2 Site Administrators wanting that channel gone. Aeto
is currently away at FC until the end of the weekend. That makes a majority
decision. At the end of the day no-one was actually AKILLed because they all
left within the allotted time given. The channel was then set FORBIDDEN.
3. The channel in question was registered by you Simba, founded by you, and
had a topic that you specifically set - knowing full well that lines like "No
blacks and no jews" have not been seen in nearly 30 yearsin American store
fronts and coffee shops due to anti-discrimination laws in the US alone.
4. No amounts of threats of violence, calling into question my gender, sexual
practices or other such abuse at my character will change the fact that you
then specially turned around and re-established this particular channel. I'm
quite used to the abuse that comes from your mouth (by the way the line in
#furnet of: You're going down, bitch. FUcking ROOKIE COP! BAD ADMINISTRATOR!
is not particularly appropriate for the help channel).
5. At no time whatsoever have I ever used such language that you use on me on
a rather regular basis (something that I only seem to get from yourself and
the other people in #safurs because of your fine example). I'd suggest some
decorum perhaps in the future?
Now nothing will change the fact that two other site administrators
specifically want that channel gone Simba. Can you comply with these requests
for once instead re-establishing the channel as you have done otherwise this
is going to get rather messy.
You made your point in regards to free speech; but there are limits and I
think you have well and truly crossed them.
#aryanfurs: Its trouble-making. Its abusive. Its illegal and its gone.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:02:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> 1. Hurge specifically requested the removal of that channel and to
> give them 10 minutes to leave - then to AKILL the ones left.
So fucking what?! Quorum was definitely not reached. I don't care
WHO'S off at FC or whatever. There are more than just FOUR people on this
list. I think you intentionally waited until you knew I was asleep before
you took this action. You are a prick. You suck. GET OUT!
> 3. The channel in question was registered by you Simba, founded by
> you, and had a topic that you specifically set - knowing full well
> that lines like "No blacks and no jews" have not been seen in nearly
> 30 yearsin American store fronts and coffee shops due to
> anti-discrimination laws in the US alone.
I DON'T CARE when lines were last seen anywhere. THERE WAS NOTHING
ILLEGAL ABOUT THAT TOPIC AND YOU KNOW IT!
> 4. No amounts of threats of violence, calling into question my
> gender, sexual practices or other such abuse at my character will
> change the fact that you then specially turned around and
> re-established this particular channel. I'm quite used to the abuse
> that comes from your mouth (by the way the line in #furnet of: You're
> going down, bitch. FUcking ROOKIE COP! BAD ADMINISTRATOR! is not
> particularly appropriate for the help channel).
Yeah, I've gone to abusing you because you are a fucking
moron. You've proven it time and time again. The gloves are off. I'm
not holding back any more. I don't care what forum I'm in. You fucking
suck at being an administrator.
> 5. At no time whatsoever have I ever used such language that you use
> on me on a rather regular basis (something that I only seem to get
> from yourself and the other people in #safurs because of your fine
> example). I'd suggest some decorum perhaps in the future?
Hells no! Speaking all prim and proper and fuckin'... snooty-esque
tongue didn't get me anywhere. Yes. You're snooty. You're the most
snooty person I've ever had to deal with thus far in life. You make me
sick. You are like Rose's mother from Titanic. You act all prim and
proper and mightier-than-thou and fuckin'... can do no wrong. Yet, in the
background, you're just horrible. I hate it. I'm going for down and
dirty and rotten now. Did I mention that you suck?
> Now nothing will change the fact that two other site administrators
> specifically want that channel gone Simba. Can you comply with these
> requests for once instead re-establishing the channel as you have done
> otherwise this is going to get rather messy.
NO. I want a better explanation than, "Well, we don't like them, so
they can go away." "AKILL them all" is NOT a valid action. You could
have MUCH more easily and without any backlash or blatant STUPIDITY just
done /chanserv set #aryanfurs mlock +nts . Emphasis on the +s part. Did
I mention +s? HELLO +s, CAN YOU HEAR ME? MORON! The part that REALLY
burns me up is that I finally conceeded to your whole argument and agreed
to change the topic to something that wasn't illegal, and YOU STILL TOOK
MORONIC ACTION! YOU DUMBASS!
> You made your point in regards to free speech; but there are limits
> and I think you have well and truly crossed them.
> #aryanfurs: Its trouble-making. Its abusive. Its illegal and its gone.
Trouble-making, maybe. Abusive, no. Illegal, not any more. FUCKING
MORON!
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 11:22:28 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:02:09 -0500 (EST)
> From: Scott 'Simba' G <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
> Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
>
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
>
> > 1. Hurge specifically requested the removal of that channel and to
> > give them 10 minutes to leave - then to AKILL the ones left.
>
> So fucking what?! Quorum was definitely not reached. I don't care
> WHO'S off at FC or whatever. There are more than just FOUR people on this
> list. I think you intentionally waited until you knew I was asleep before
> you took this action. You are a prick. You suck. GET OUT!
The fact remains that there are 4 Site Administrators on this network. One is
away and the other two supported this action. That makes it a 66% majority
decision. A majority of the Site Administraters was represented in this
action, and a majority of them supported the action. I fail to see how
'quorum' was not reached.
Whilst there are other Admins on the network; this has been a debate (mostly
despite the abuse) between Site Administrators.
[ Deleting rest due to non stop abuse yet again ]
At the end of the day, directing this abuse at me personally(yet again) is
purile. It is not doing anything for your case, neither is threating physical
abuse or the stablity of the network such as JUPITERing margay (as you have
previously stated in the last 24 hours). I would hope you would reconsider
any action in any of these particular areas.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:49:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> The fact remains that there are 4 Site Administrators on this network.
> One is away and the other two supported this action. That makes it a
> 66% majority decision. A majority of the Site Administraters was
> represented in this action, and a majority of them supported the
> action. I fail to see how 'quorum' was not reached.
You fail to see it becuase you're a fucking moron and can't see past
the nose on your face. Case in point, YET AGAIN. Two out of four is 50%,
not 66%. You need better than 50% to reach quorum. The fact is, you
didn't wait for an answer from Aeto. Why? He hasn't been answering the
entire time this discussion has been put forward.
You ask for me to get them to change the topic on the basis that the
topic is illegal. I DO, and you still are all like, "OMG WHAT ARE WE
GOING TO DO ABOUT THIS CHANNEL?" after it had all died down.
When Hurga answered the way that he did, I don't think that he knew
that I had changed the channel settings so that only I could change the
topic and that I had changed the topic to something not illegal. Hurga?
Any input here?
> Whilst there are other Admins on the network; this has been a debate
> (mostly despite the abuse) between Site Administrators.
I don't care who the debate has been "primarily between". You don't
take the few people who are even commenting and call them a committee on
the entire subject. The committee is the entire list of admins, not just
the site administrators. We need opinions, here, and only a small
handfull are giving them. You want to talk about irresponsibility? Talk
to the folks who aren't responding and offering their opinions.
> At the end of the day, directing this abuse at me personally(yet
> again) is purile. It is not doing anything for your case, neither is
> threating physical abuse or the stablity of the network such as
> JUPITERing margay (as you have previously stated in the last 24
> hours). I would hope you would reconsider any action in any of these
> particular areas.
Yes, the abuse is directed at you personally, 'cause you're the only
moron making the absolute most STUPID decisions here. You need to be
gotten rid of. You are a disgrace to admins everywhere. GO AWAY and take
your IRON FIST HAND OF DEATH administration tactics with you.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:15:03 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> You fail to see it becuase you're a fucking moron and can't see past
> the nose on your face. Case in point, YET AGAIN. Two out of four is 50%,
> not 66%. You need better than 50% to reach quorum. The fact is, you
> didn't wait for an answer from Aeto. Why? He hasn't been answering the
> entire time this discussion has been put forward.
That is because Aeto has been dealing with FC as everyone is well aware.
I would note simple maths.
4 Site Administrators minus 1 absent = 3.
3 out of 4 present = 75% (greater than quorum).
2 for a decision / 3 total = 66% majority.
If you can kindly refrain from the 'stupid' and 'moron' comments and at least
consider complying with the actions of two other administrators it would be
appreciated. I would note for the record that:
* You registered this channel on the 13th of this month.
* You were (now are since you have decided to reinstate the channel) the
Founder.
* You were the one responsible for the topic in question.
BTW: The current topic is a touch crass don't you think? (Topic currently set
by Simba is: BIG, STEAMY, SQUIRTY, SMELLY, WHITE, PUSS-FILLED, CREAMY, ACRID,
ACIDIC, DISEASE-FILLED VAGINAL DISCHARGE)
You did this knowing full well that this would incite more complaints from
users which it did. You also did this knowing full well that Aeto would be
away and would be busy. You should have considered that in your actions.
At the end of the day I am not the one who is abusive or lacks any form of
respect for other individuals upon this list. I am not the one who abuses
other administrators in public using the colorful language you have chosen to
display on this list.
I ask this of you once again: Please remove #aryanfurs. It was removed for a
reason; it was removed under a majority decision by the people whom run the
servers of this network. It has given us enough trouble - it is time for it
to be gone. What ever point you had hoped to have made with the channel has
long since perished due to the sheer written abuse you have decided to coat it
in.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:13:34 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> That is because Aeto has been dealing with FC as everyone is well
> aware. I would note simple maths.
OIC. That still doesn't include everyone else.
> If you can kindly refrain from the 'stupid' and 'moron' comments and
> at least consider complying with the actions of two other
> administrators it would be appreciated. I would note for the record
> that:
Okay.
> * You registered this channel on the 13th of this month.
Yes.
> * You were (now are since you have decided to reinstate the channel) the
> Founder.
Yes.
> * You were the one responsible for the topic in question.
Yes. And for the record, that topic wasn't questionable.
> BTW: The current topic is a touch crass don't you think? (Topic
> currently set by Simba is: BIG, STEAMY, SQUIRTY, SMELLY, WHITE,
> PUSS-FILLED, CREAMY, ACRID, ACIDIC, DISEASE-FILLED VAGINAL DISCHARGE)
Yes, it's crass. That's the idea. No, it's not illegal. No, you
really can't do anything about it.
> You did this knowing full well that this would incite more complaints
> from users which it did. You also did this knowing full well that
> Aeto would be away and would be busy. You should have considered that
> in your actions.
Logs of complaints, plz.
> At the end of the day I am not the one who is abusive or lacks any
> form of respect for other individuals upon this list. I am not the
> one who abuses other administrators in public using the colorful
> language you have chosen to display on this list.
I'm only abusing you. Quit using plural terms. You're the only one
deserving of abuse.
> I ask this of you once again: Please remove #aryanfurs. It was
> removed for a reason; it was removed under a majority decision by the
> people whom run the servers of this network. It has given us enough
> trouble - it is time for it to be gone. What ever point you had hoped
> to have made with the channel has long since perished due to the sheer
> written abuse you have decided to coat it in.
Okay, removed.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:50:56 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
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On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> > You did this knowing full well that this would incite more complaints
> > from users which it did. You also did this knowing full well that
> > Aeto would be away and would be busy. You should have considered that
> > in your actions.
>
> Logs of complaints, plz.
Well I'd just look at the last couple of days of mail activity to start with.
> > At the end of the day I am not the one who is abusive or lacks any
> > form of respect for other individuals upon this list. I am not the
> > one who abuses other administrators in public using the colorful
> > language you have chosen to display on this list.
>
> I'm only abusing you. Quit using plural terms. You're the only one
> deserving of abuse.
So be it.
> > I ask this of you once again: Please remove #aryanfurs. It was
> > removed for a reason; it was removed under a majority decision by the
> > people whom run the servers of this network. It has given us enough
> > trouble - it is time for it to be gone. What ever point you had hoped
> > to have made with the channel has long since perished due to the sheer
> > written abuse you have decided to coat it in.
>
> Okay, removed.
Thank you. The message of 'horrible administration' as the reason for
FORBIDing is perhaps not the best tact however.
If you could help reinforce this by removing yourself from #aryanfurs and then
remove the new channel #aryanfurs2 that you have chosen to set up obviously to
further this argument would be appreciated.
13:45:36 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Information for channel
#aryanfurs2:
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Founder: simba
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Description: Send all
complaints to ircadmin@pridelands.org
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Registered: Jan 24 18:37:17
2004 PST
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Last used: Jan 24 19:30:46
2004 PST
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Last topic: BIG, STEAMY,
SQUIRTY, SMELLY, WHITE, PUSS-FILLED, CREAMY,
ACRID, ACIDIC, DISEASE-FILLED VAGINAL DISCHARGE
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Topic set by: Simba
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Ban type: 1
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Options: Topic Retention,
Peace, Secure Ops, Secure Founder, Signed
kicks, Topic Lock
13:45:37 -ChanServ(services@irc.furnet.org)- Mode lock: +nrt
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
PGP (GnuPG) fingerprint = 5280 6EBC D281 A9D2 564B E274 B2EC 54C3 8325 CECD
Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:01:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> Well I'd just look at the last couple of days of mail activity to
> start with.
Oh? The _one_ vocal minority complaint? OIC.
> Thank you. The message of 'horrible administration' as the reason for
> FORBIDing is perhaps not the best tact however.
lol
> If you could help reinforce this by removing yourself from #aryanfurs
> and then remove the new channel #aryanfurs2 that you have chosen to
> set up obviously to further this argument would be appreciated.
Oh. Okay, left #aryanfurs. #aryanfurs2 is a whole other channel,
though. This debate will have to start over with that one. Sorry.
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:07:33 +1000 (EST)
From: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
Reply-To: "Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony'" <[address redacted]@snowy.org>
To: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
cc: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Scott 'Simba' G wrote:
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:01:10 -0500 (EST)
> From: Scott 'Simba' G <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
> To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
> Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
>
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
>
> > Well I'd just look at the last couple of days of mail activity to
> > start with.
>
> Oh? The _one_ vocal minority complaint? OIC.
Two actually in the last couple of weeks so far alone. Not including the PMs
I get. I imagine other administrators get similar complaints as well -
with the exception of yourself (probably because you are sitting in the
channel half the time).
> > Thank you. The message of 'horrible administration' as the reason for
> > FORBIDing is perhaps not the best tact however.
>
> lol
>
> > If you could help reinforce this by removing yourself from #aryanfurs
> > and then remove the new channel #aryanfurs2 that you have chosen to
> > set up obviously to further this argument would be appreciated.
>
> Oh. Okay, left #aryanfurs. #aryanfurs2 is a whole other channel,
> though. This debate will have to start over with that one. Sorry.
That is rather childish. And it is wasting time. I have better things to do
and I imagine so does the rest of the administration than to chase around the
same debate from one channel to another. Why not save some face and do the
right thing and drop it now?
Through the last 12 hours you have threatened me with physical abuse; tried to
remove me from the service admin list and apparently at least suggested you
were trying to JUPITER margay. Please consider your actions and not try to
turn this into some sort of war. I do not think it is going to benefit the
network at all.
- --
Snowy "Snowpony" Angelique Cerise Maslov -- http://snowy.org/email.signature
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Email not addressed/CCd to [address redacted]@snowy.org BOUNCE. READ URL for disclaimer!
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir. Curiosity was framed." ---C.J. Cherryh
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 00:13:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Scott 'Simba' G" <[address redacted]@pridelands.org>
To: [address redacted]@irc.furnet.org
Subject: Re: Response regarding #aryanfurs removal.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Snowy Angelique Maslov aka 'Snowpony' wrote:
> Two actually in the last couple of weeks so far alone. Not including
> the PMs I get. I imagine other administrators get similar complaints
> as well - with the exception of yourself (probably because you are
> sitting in the channel half the time).
OMG! 2?! WOW! That's like a whole quarter of a percent of the
current connected users! That seems like a vocal minority to me.
> That is rather childish. And it is wasting time. I have better
> things to do and I imagine so does the rest of the administration than
> to chase around the same debate from one channel to another. Why not
> save some face and do the right thing and drop it now?
It's also rather childish to use the drop, forbid, and akill commands
like they're just as common as /join or /msg.
There's no face to save other than the face of horrible
administration actions; a face which YOU are the one portraying, not
me. I've just finally had it with your shennegans and improper use of
admin tools and commands.
> Through the last 12 hours you have threatened me with physical abuse;
> tried to remove me from the service admin list and apparently at least
> suggested you were trying to JUPITER margay. Please consider your
> actions and not try to turn this into some sort of war. I do not
> think it is going to benefit the network at all.
1. I never threatened you with physical abuse. I said, "I might",
which doesn't imply any impending physical doom. It just means I may have
considered it.
2. I admit to trying to remove you from the admin list on account of
abuse of administrator privileges.
3. I suggested jupitering your server, but it probably would have
caused a bit of mayhem network-wide. I didn't feel like involving the
entire userbase of Furnet in the mayhem and confusion of my one-man war on
bad administration.
4. It will benefit the network, eventually, if people don't have to
cower in your presence. They won't have to fear the bringer of far too
many unjust akills. It will be a much more peaceful place, I can assure
you. It was great before your server was linked and you became an admin;
a decision made in order to hopefully serve our Australian users with a
better connection to the network. Instead, it just brought on a reign of
terror and administrator privilege abuse that must be stopped. You
need to go away. ROOKIE BAD COP! NO DOUGHNUT!
---
Scott 'Simba' G
[address redacted]@pridelands.org